I made a post in the used mustang thread that got completely ignored, anyway. I've heard it so many times on this forum; "You're not ready for that" "Don't get that as your first" "You can't handle that". I am of course referring to sports cars, specifically v8s, even more specifically v8s that are rwd, and yet even more detail rwd manual v8s. It is completely logical for one to say you are not ready for a certain car, and there is no argument there, but when is a driver ready? A lot of people ,especially young ones, talk about getting this car or that car, they are immediatly discouraged. It makes sense, but when should one get a car like this? I have 3 years of driving experience, i've driven two fwd 4 bangers and two rwd v6 sedans, they are the cars which my family own, and i have significant experience with each. Am i ready for a manual v8 with rwd?

Basically, when you can easily ignore the urge to stomp on the accelerator everytime you go by a remotely quick looking car.

Or, you have an iota of common sense, which sadly, everyone lacks when they get their license for the first oh, three years. =P

That's called stereotyping..

Anyone can handle it with a calm enough foot or enough experience.

I obviously don't want to jinx myself, but I'm 17.. drove an automatic 'Lude that ran a 15.4.. to a 6spd LT1 that runs a ~13.4.. then again I'm not your average driver, but there are exceptions to the rule.

Not quite as awesome as Attaus' CV; I had a 300hp, 5.7L V8 sedan that weighed 1700kg when I was 19. Heaps of fun in the straight lines and in the wet, but the car bored me, so besides converting tyres into smoke every now and then I rarely mucked around. Dangerous, yes, if I was a moron, but Commodores of that era have a reputation of being able to protect passengers from all but an artillery strike.

Now I'm 20, I have a 3L, 260hp @ 9psi Supra that weighs nearly 300kg less, and I'm enjoying it a lot more. In this here turbo 6 with less safety features than aforementioned V8, I could probably do a lot more damage to my face, to my passengers and those using the road around me.

Now yes, there is a massive difference between the torque curves of a toyota 6 and an LS1, a whole tyre-squealing pants-load-of-poop of difference, but any sane kid who takes the time to get to know the car and its behaviours isn't going to be anymore of an issue as some idiot who's been driving 20 years and still hasn't learned. The Commodore went sideways off the line, sure, but the Supra isn't exactly hard to oversteer at 60kph. And it's easier to hold a slide in the toyota, too.

In other words, it's not just the V8s that people should be hesitant about giving to kids, its any kind of car that might arouse their inner idiot. It's got nothing to do with speed or grunt, its the madness of the kid behind the wheel.

Rav you have an MKIII right? I drove 2 of em.. absolutely loved the car. It's a very similar feeling to the Camaro, only difference is a little less power but that amazing turbo sound. I'd be tempted to trade a few ponies to hear that spool. Anyway I agree that you can hurt yourself in any car with power.

My first car was a muscle car with a big block.

It has a lot to do with your experience and your ability. I had never driven anything with an engine smaller than a 350, other than ranch tractors. I actually learned in a pickup with a 454 under he hood.


Driving a 4 banger really does not get you ready for a V8 sports car though though

Yep, Mk3. But if we got cars like the Camaro here, I would never have even considered the supra. There's a few 3rd gen F-bodies floating around that are within my price range, but they're all either in poor condition, LHD (which is no good) or RHD converted (which I wouldn't be willing to trust).

I'd kill for a proper V8 coupe. After the Supra, I don't think I could own another wallowy sedan again, but I miss the powerband and I miss the noise.

Life is so difficult :p


My first car was a muscle car with a big block.


I wish I was born back then. I'd probably fit into the 70s better than I do the current times.

Yep, Mk3. But if we got cars like the Camaro here, I would never have even considered the supra. There's a few 3rd gen F-bodies floating around that are within my price range, but they're all either in poor condition, LHD (which is no good) or RHD converted (which I wouldn't be willing to trust).

I'd kill for a proper V8 coupe. After the Supra, I don't think I could own another wallowy sedan again, but I miss the powerband and I miss the noise.

Life is so difficult :p




I wish I was born back then. I'd probably fit into the 70s better than I do the current times.

you are on the wrong continent Rav......I would get rid of a 92 camaro RS, with a 5.0 and a 5 speed cheap. The paint is not great, but the interior is perfect (dark metallic teal, with grey interior)

And the 80s were when muscle cars were dirt cheap....that was the gas crunch.I got that 66 GTO, with an engine rattle for $400. My 69 GTO judge was $1,600. My 68 442 was $1,300, and my 396 SS chevelle was $1,000

Lenght of time driving has no effect on your abilities or your common sense. A first time driver who has been driving for 6 months could just as easily drive a V8 RWD standard as well as a 5 year driving vet. Time isn't a fair judge of skill and intellect.

Lenght of time driving has no effect on your abilities or your common sense. A first time driver who has been driving for 6 months could just as easily drive a V8 RWD standard as well as a 5 year driving vet. Time isn't a fair judge of skill and intellect.

Actually it IS. Unless you have experienced the power of a V8, you have no idea of what it will do under less than ideal traction conditions, or how to handle it when the back end passes the front. The fact that the author of this thread accepts this IS the best way I have to judge his intellect

Your statement did make me laugh though. The last time I heard that in person was when a young kid wanted to buy my 70 SS chevelle 396. I made him bring his dad when he paid me. His dad said the same thing........Then he wrecked the car before he got home with it

1984 Cadillac Seville....

FWD
4.1L V8 engine..... 0-60 in about 10 minutes......

Cadillac 4.9 motors in various sevilles devilles and el dorado before the northstars....

Which are slow, ETC northstar..also slow....

Plenty of v8's aren't fast..

I mean look at the Ford Vans and Chevy fans for work trucks ETC with v8's.....

V8 does not = fast...

Lenght of time driving has no effect on your abilities or your common sense. A first time driver who has been driving for 6 months could just as easily drive a V8 RWD standard as well as a 5 year driving vet. Time isn't a fair judge of skill and intellect.

Time IS the judge of skill and intellect. Better yet, EXPERIENCE is the judge of skill and intellect and the only way to gain experience is with time, so add it up.

I have to agree with Drifster. V8 does not equal fast.
Oldsmobile 4.3s really suck. They have less balls than most 4 cylinders on the market right now.

The biggest part is driver responsibility. My cousin has 4 3rd gen Camaro's, and honestly (I hate to say it, but I'd say it to him, too, if it ever came up), I'm surprised he made it through the summer the way he drives them, let alone uninjured & still having all 4. It also depends on the car/configuration. Some cars, I agree, not good for new drivers. I've driven 5.0L fox body Mustang's, last 2 generations of Mustang GT's, 3rd (350's & 305's, auto & stick) and 4th gen Camaro's, BMW 540's & 545's, along with many others. Camaro's/Mustang's are not the best for beginners, especially the earlier models. In the rain, even for a responsible, experienced driver, losing control is losing control. SUVs/vans/pickups can still be a bit of a handful, but only in the rain (dad's Tahoe could really use some better tires).

Biggest thing = responsibility.

Most accidents you see coming from these things, when people start saying "Why was that kid driving a 5.0L?" or "What were his/her parent's thinking getting him that new Corvette?" always involve reckless driving. Speeding, hard launches, street racing, and just aggressive driving in general. Of course, experience helps, but driving a FWD 120HP 4 banger 3 speed auto will not help a driver respond when they're trying to start up a hill with a 400HP+ RWD 6 speed and they let out the clutch too fast with the RPM too high. Drive in good weather first, learn just how much power you're dealing with. Then, don't go out driving it if it snows & you've never dealt with light rain (okay, most of the cars considered in this thread wouldn't even move in the snow, but still). Poor weather, experience will help, no matter how responsible you are. In good conditions, it's almost all driver responsibility. PS: All posted above is opinionated, there is no proof of this, either way, only circumstantial evidence.

And the 80s were when muscle cars were dirt cheap....that was the gas crunch.I got that 66 GTO, with an engine rattle for $400. My 69 GTO judge was $1,600. My 68 442 was $1,300, and my 396 SS chevelle was $1,000

How far along is your flux capacitor?

How far along is your flux capacitor?
I am wondering too. My dilithium crystals have a few more years of use before I need to have Scotty squeeze a WEE bit more out them.

Oh, and on the OT, get a V8, buy as much horsepower as your wallet can afford. The ONLY way you are going to learn about handling a car, be it a V8, 6, or a four banger is to get in it and drive it. Make the mistakes, take your lumps.

Take the engine apart, learn about it. Study it. Put it back together again. Buy a good manual, get some good tools (THOSE WILL ALWAYS BE YOUR BEST FRIEND). Thats the way to learn about cars.

If you think for a minute you are going to learn about "driving" from asking questions in a forum, then you are a fool. Buy the car you want and can afford, and learn from experience. You are not going to learn how to drive from a forum.

The foot-to-accelerator urge was something I definitely had with my first two cars, sadly. What do you expect from a 17 year old with the biggest truck in school? Haha.

Flipping my second car put a whole new spin on things, and pretty much jarred that right out of my brain. (For reputation's sake, I was not racing at all or trying to show off when I flipped the car. Bad oversteer and over-correcting did that for me. Not to mention the power steering leak that I found out about).

About the flux capacitor: I really need to get back to the 80's. I dont have a snazzy DeLorean, but I'm sure we could grab an old Corolla for dirt cheap (or free).

How far along is your flux capacitor?

That was never my favorite movie or TV show car. I really liked that modified Manta from the first season of the TV show "Hardcastle and McCormick", and I actually wanted to buy one of the original Ferrari Datona Spyders from the early Miami Vice episodes........They weren't really Ferraris though. They were kits on vette chassis (I think they were originally done by McBurney, but that has been along time ago, and my remember is faulty).....I gave up on them wen a rough one went for over $10,000 with no top and ratty interior

Nah, I just meant that I need to go back in time and grab the muscle cars when they were cheap. O_O

ten grand for a shoddy condition car is pushing it. Hah, that coming from the guy that would dump the money into a beat up camaro...

The pro street/muscle area was a lot of fun to live through......we used to call chevy 350s belly button engines, because everyone had one....I actually gave a 1970 chevy LT1 and a good 454 away because I did not have room to store them

You're worsening my situation by the post, bud. haha

Time IS the judge of skill and intellect.


Following this logic, age is a measure of intellect. This is obviously not true.



When I first started driving I had two friend, one had a V8 S10, the other had a V8 mustang, both got the cars when they 1st got their licenses. The guy with the S10 didn't have common sense or any sense of responsibility and took his truck and did all kinda of dumb stuff on the public roads and yes, a few times he ended up with tail where the nose was. On the other hand the Mustang guy had common sense and didn't have a problem with his rear end swinging around.

My first car was a 69 Camaro that would scare most people. BUT... I had many years of experience off road and on tracks. When I got my license I STILL had a hard time getting used to that car in traffic. The one good thing was that I got to get my "need for speed" aggression out at the track on wednesday nights and the street races on sunday nights. I didn't have any need to show off with it all the time. Responsibility is a big part but also respect for the car and the other people around you.

I think im well adapted to my S8 :D

My first car was a 69 Camaro that would scare most people. BUT... I had many years of experience off road and on tracks. When I got my license I STILL had a hard time getting used to that car in traffic. The one good thing was that I got to get my "need for speed" aggression out at the track on wednesday nights and the street races on sunday nights. I didn't have any need to show off with it all the time. Responsibility is a big part but also respect for the car and the other people around you.
You hit on a good point. I think it is natural for people to have a 'need for speed' at a young age. When I was 16 (back in the day), I drove my 1992 Pontiac Grand Prix like it was a freaking race car. I did it on the streets because I didn't have anywhere else to get my agression out.

(I can honestly say, now that I am older and more mature, that it was a good thing that I had 3.1L V6 FWD with an automatic. I wanted a fast flashy car when I was younger, but my parents wouldn't let me. I hated them for it back then, but I am thankful for it now. I would've killed myself.)

Back on topic, some people like Monkey were ready to drive a fast car when they first started driving. And that is because you had a place to drive it fast, so you didn't feel the need to do it on the street.

You're worsening my situation by the post, bud. haha

Just a different time.....each generation of drivers has their high points......yours is the next one to leave it's mark

Following this logic, age is a measure of intellect. This is obviously not true.


Age does not dictate intellect, but is DOES play a part in dictating maturity. You have no idea how often some little punk kid thinks he is just the coolest thing on the road, by pulling up next to me and revving up his engine. This is not something older, more mature, drivers do on a regular basis

Now you may not agree with me, but I can leave you with something to think about. Insurance companies use a registry of accidents to set prices. They have exact numbers of how many camaros, corvettes, mustangs, porsches, accuras, civics, pickups, vans, etc, etc, etc. were wrecked each year. This list is then cross referenced with your driving history, age, experience, and all other factors to come up with your specific risk factor when selling you insurance.........Now why do YOU think YOUR insurance would be more in a mustang GT than in a mini van?????


You hit on a good point. I think it is natural for people to have a 'need for speed' at a young age. When I was 16 (back in the day), I drove my 1992 Pontiac Grand Prix like it was a freaking race car. I did it on the streets because I didn't have anywhere else to get my agression out.

(I can honestly say, now that I am older and more mature, that it was a good thing that I had 3.1L V6 FWD with an automatic. I wanted a fast flashy car when I was younger, but my parents wouldn't let me. I hated them for it back then, but I am thankful for it now. I would've killed myself.)

Back on topic, some people like Monkey were ready to drive a fast car when they first started driving. And that is because you had a place to drive it fast, so you didn't feel the to do it on the track.


I HATE the pontiac grand prix with a passion!!!!!!!!

That might have something to do with the fact that my first wife got mad one day, and traded in my old jaguar on one (it was a 72 in perfect condition.....she said she wanted a back seat!)

You have missed my point completely.

Also, age does not dictate maturity. You are over generalizing. I've seen more than enough older men who are not mature enough to know their limits on things like alcohol, and I won't even start on drunk driving.

Age can not be directly related in any sort of "maturity equation" all age tells you is except how long you have been on this earth.


Maturity is shaped by experiences, and according to your age-maturity theory there is no such thing as an immature “old” person nor is there a mature “young” person. This also raises the question of what age does maturity kick in? 25? 30? 35? To pick an age like this is ludicrous. The only way to predict maturity is to look at an individual and not a group.

This is not something older, more mature, drivers do on a regular basis





You have already proven my point with this phrase. Obviously they HAVE done it at least on occasion and thus age can NOT predict your level of maturity.

You have missed my point completely.

Also, age does not dictate maturity. You are over generalizing. I've seen more than enough older men who are not mature enough to know their limits on things like alcohol, and I won't even start on drunk driving.

Age can not be directly related in any sort of "maturity equation" all age tells you is except how long you have been on this earth.


Maturity is shaped by experiences, and according to your age-maturity theory there is no such thing as an immature “old” person nor is there a mature “young” person. This also raises the question of what age does maturity kick in? 25? 30? 35? To pick an age like this is ludicrous. The only way to predict maturity is to look at an individual and not a group.

Not only am I NOT missing your point, you are intentionally ignoring mine (tell me all about how mature that is).
Now let's really look at your argument, and follow the logic all the way through, instead of just stopping where it looks best for your position. If maturity is shaped by experience (your statement), explain to me how you, personally, could have the experiences that I have. Pick any other member on here who is the same age as you, give or take one year. Now compare his or her experiences behind the wheel and yours collectively to mine. Now If you don't like using me for this, Monkey is only a year younger than me, use him.

You have tried to manipulate this argument to make your own points, in order to support your claim, but there is MUCH more to it, and I will not overlook the facts that do not support your argument. It is a commonly accepted FACT, that as whole younger drivers have a MUCH higher percentage of accidents per driver, than someone in my age group. When placed in a high performance car that percentage goes up exponentially. Now you have taken the best possible example for your point (a young person with exemplary maturity), and the wost possible example for mine (a drunk driver), but these all figure into the statistics, and still your point is not validated.
Why do you think insurance companies price coverage for performance cars out of the budget of most younger drivers or just refuse coverage all together? They are just more likely to have to pay a claim with an inexperienced driver in a performance car

One other thing to consider. My generation of drivers grew up with big V8s. Even my Grandmother had a big V8. We all learned in then, and are more familiar with the characteristics of a RWD, V8 powered vehicle......The younger generation of drivers are not learning the same things

I tottalled 3 cars when i was 16 alone...

None of which were my fault, but...I'm sure that helped the percentage.

1 was a V8

u crashed 3 cars and none were your fault? lol i find that hard to believe but if you crashed once then it would be a different thing

First car, 01 accord...Guy running from the cops rear ended me doing about 90mph in a 45.....

Cops were chasing him without their lights on, so they TRIED to blame me and said i turned infront of the guy..

I fought it in court with enough picture/physical evidence to disprove their "idea" considering the damage was done to the rear driver side of the car instead of the passenger at an inward angle meaning i would have had to turn and RE-turn infront of this guy in order for him to hit me like that.....


Second car, was my first Honda, i was stopped at a light and a 90's dodge ram plowed into the back of me, totalled the car hurt some people, but i didn't have a scratch..

Third car was a Ford Ranger, i was on my way paintballing on a dirt road doing about 15 mph...Where the posted speed limit was 20..(15 due to lame steet tires etc)
a Raptor 660 flies from out of no where (off the road/off the trail) onto the road and right infront of me (litterally like 6 feet infront of me) blocks my vision just long enough for me to not see the oncomming burn, hit the burn roll the truck a good 60 feet down a slope (it rolled 3 times i wanna say) and came to a stop on it's wheels.

Those 3 were all while i was 16

Another car was the BMW, which was shot 6 times, considering the damage done the car was a total loss.....
damage included
rear window
rear passenger 1/4 window
rear passenger window
rear passenger door and A pillar
Rear seat
rear headrest
front driver seat
front driver headrest
the entire gauge cluster
the climate control and sound system
not to mention the blood stains on the mats/seats/dash/console/center console/floor/head liner.

All that replacement would have been higher than the value of an e36 so.....yeah it was totalled...

Not only am I NOT missing your point, you are intentionally ignoring mine (tell me all about how mature that is).
Now let's really look at your argument, and follow the logic all the way through, instead of just stopping where it looks best for your position. If maturity is shaped by experience (your statement), explain to me how you, personally, could have the experiences that I have. Pick any other member on here who is the same age as you, give or take one year. Now compare his or her experiences behind the wheel and yours collectively to mine. Now If you don't like using me for this, Monkey is only a year younger than me, use him.

You have tried to manipulate this argument to make your own points, in order to support your claim, but there is MUCH more to it, and I will not overlook the facts that do not support your argument. It is a commonly accepted FACT, that as whole younger drivers have a MUCH higher percentage of accidents per driver, than someone in my age group. When placed in a high performance car that percentage goes up exponentially. Now you have taken the best possible example for your point (a young person with exemplary maturity), and the wost possible example for mine (a drunk driver), but these all figure into the statistics, and still your point is not validated.
Why do you think insurance companies price coverage for performance cars out of the budget of most younger drivers or just refuse coverage all together? They are just more likely to have to pay a claim with an inexperienced driver in a performance car

One other thing to consider. My generation of drivers grew up with big V8s. Even my Grandmother had a big V8. We all learned in then, and are more familiar with the characteristics of a RWD, V8 powered vehicle......The younger generation of drivers are not learning the same things


I'm not covering all cases, nor have ever said that age doesn't have any factor in maturity. Every post I have said the same thing, that age is NOT THE ONLY factor. I have never ignored your point, your point has been “age = mature” and I've addressed that in each of my responses.


The point of this thread is “am I ready for a V8” and my answer has been the same the entire time, that age is not going to make you ready for it, your level of maturity will.




I do enjoy the way you have assumed my age as well.

First car, 01 accord...Guy running from the cops rear ended me doing about 90mph in a 45.....

Cops were chasing him without their lights on, so they TRIED to blame me and said i turned infront of the guy..

I fought it in court with enough picture/physical evidence to disprove their "idea" considering the damage was done to the rear driver side of the car instead of the passenger at an inward angle meaning i would have had to turn and RE-turn infront of this guy in order for him to hit me like that.....


Second car, was my first Honda, i was stopped at a light and a 90's dodge ram plowed into the back of me, totalled the car hurt some people, but i didn't have a scratch..

Third car was a Ford Ranger, i was on my way paintballing on a dirt road doing about 15 mph...Where the posted speed limit was 20..(15 due to lame steet tires etc)
a Raptor 660 flies from out of no where (off the road/off the trail) onto the road and right infront of me (litterally like 6 feet infront of me) blocks my vision just long enough for me to not see the oncomming burn, hit the burn roll the truck a good 60 feet down a slope (it rolled 3 times i wanna say) and came to a stop on it's wheels.

Those 3 were all while i was 16

Another car was the BMW, which was shot 6 times, considering the damage done the car was a total loss.....
damage included
rear window
rear passenger 1/4 window
rear passenger window
rear passenger door and A pillar
Rear seat
rear headrest
front driver seat
front driver headrest
the entire gauge cluster
the climate control and sound system
not to mention the blood stains on the mats/seats/dash/console/center console/floor/head liner.

All that replacement would have been higher than the value of an e36 so.....yeah it was totalled...
totoal loss?!just it?I and my father fixed cars that was much more damaged tha this BMW , but any ways a BMW worth the money that you would put in it to fix it , well...here where used cars cost a fortune.

First car, 01 accord...Guy running from the cops rear ended me doing about 90mph in a 45.....

Cops were chasing him without their lights on, so they TRIED to blame me and said i turned infront of the guy..

I fought it in court with enough picture/physical evidence to disprove their "idea" considering the damage was done to the rear driver side of the car instead of the passenger at an inward angle meaning i would have had to turn and RE-turn infront of this guy in order for him to hit me like that.....


Second car, was my first Honda, i was stopped at a light and a 90's dodge ram plowed into the back of me, totalled the car hurt some people, but i didn't have a scratch..

Third car was a Ford Ranger, i was on my way paintballing on a dirt road doing about 15 mph...Where the posted speed limit was 20..(15 due to lame steet tires etc)
a Raptor 660 flies from out of no where (off the road/off the trail) onto the road and right infront of me (litterally like 6 feet infront of me) blocks my vision just long enough for me to not see the oncomming burn, hit the burn roll the truck a good 60 feet down a slope (it rolled 3 times i wanna say) and came to a stop on it's wheels.

Those 3 were all while i was 16

Another car was the BMW, which was shot 6 times, considering the damage done the car was a total loss.....
damage included
rear window
rear passenger 1/4 window
rear passenger window
rear passenger door and A pillar
Rear seat
rear headrest
front driver seat
front driver headrest
the entire gauge cluster
the climate control and sound system
not to mention the blood stains on the mats/seats/dash/console/center console/floor/head liner.

All that replacement would have been higher than the value of an e36 so.....yeah it was totalled...

bloody hell talk about bad luck lol

yes, bloody hell.
I'm ready to drive a V8



































psych
im getting my overdue permit soon...

I do enjoy the way you have assumed my age as well.

The logic is quite simple actually......had you been older AND more mature, you would not have taken the point that you did. If you had the amount of experience that I do, the point would have been moot to you. Instead you took the point as if you had something to prove. Instead of telling me of YOUR, PERSONAL, experience, you told me of friends with a mustang and an S10. Most often enthusiasts gravitate toward others with similar experiences, and attitudes. The fact that you tell me of YOUNG drivers as being your FRIENDS, and one being so immature, says much more about you than you realize. Also the fact that you wish so much to establish that you are ready, as well as the way you presented your argument, makes me think that this is a practiced argument. The only logical reason for this is that you have to convince someone else of this. Had you been of age,and responsible enough, you would have just bought one, instead of trying to convince me that you were ready.

It is a pretty safe bet that your parents have said you were not ready, and that is why this thread hit so close to home. If this is so, there has to be a reason for this attitude......and I would have to agree with them

Just something to think about here........There are a few people on here I would trust with my sports cars (and I have a few nice ones). If you can figure out who they are, you will see what people who really are ready for that kind of car act like

There are kids only 1 year older than me and they are perfectly comfortable driving a 750hp NASCAR. Don't make stupid, general statements like "You should be at least ** years old before you can have a V8". Everyone is different. Although, it's rather true that most people are more responsible at age 35 than at age 17. Just my two cents for this thread.

There are kids only 1 year older than me and they are perfectly comfortable driving a 750hp NASCAR. Don't make stupid, general statements like "You should be at least ** years old before you can have a V8". Everyone is different. Although, it's rather true that most people are more responsible at age 35 than at age 17. Just my two cents for this thread.

I hope that was not directed at me, because I never gave an age, and my point really was about experience level.

People racing NASCAR, would never be questioned about their ability. They obviously have the needed experience or they would not have the necessary license. There are many younger drivers who grew up in racing families, who are ready, but more who aren't

If you watch, the ones with the most to prove are generally not ready.

The logic is quite simple actually......had you been older AND more mature, you would not have taken the point that you did. If you had the amount of experience that I do, the point would have been moot to you. Instead you took the point as if you had something to prove. Instead of telling me of YOUR, PERSONAL, experience, you told me of friends with a mustang and an S10. Most often enthusiasts gravitate toward others with similar experiences, and attitudes. The fact that you tell me of YOUNG drivers as being your FRIENDS, and one being so immature, says much more about you than you realize. Also the fact that you wish so much to establish that you are ready, as well as the way you presented your argument, makes me think that this is a practiced argument. The only logical reason for this is that you have to convince someone else of this. Had you been of age,and responsible enough, you would have just bought one, instead of trying to convince me that you were ready.

It is a pretty safe bet that your parents have said you were not ready, and that is why this thread hit so close to home. If this is so, there has to be a reason for this attitude......and I would have to agree with them

Just something to think about here........There are a few people on here I would trust with my sports cars (and I have a few nice ones). If you can figure out who they are, you will see what people who really are ready for that kind of car act like


Out of curiosity, how old do you think I am?


If I gave the feeling that I had something to prove then yes, I can see where your coming from. When I was a teenager I did not enjoy the reputation and attitude I got from people because “all teenagers are evil and immature.”


I would like you to note that when I spoke of mustang and the S10 I specifically stated that it occurred “when I started driving.”


Also, my parents have never told me “no your not ready for a V8.” They never told me I was or wasn't ready for any car. I chose a car that I could afford at the time. When I was an undergrad I leased a V8 Mustang. Which is why I even felt like I could contribute to this thread. Had I not ever driven a V8 I wouldn't have posted.

Out of curiosity, how old do you think I am?


If I gave the feeling that I had something to prove then yes, I can see where your coming from. When I was a teenager I did not enjoy the reputation and attitude I got from people because “all teenagers are evil and immature.”


I would like you to note that when I spoke of mustang and the S10 I specifically stated that it occurred “when I started driving.”


Also, my parents have never told me “no your not ready for a V8.” They never told me I was or wasn't ready for any car. I chose a car that I could afford at the time. When I was an undergrad I leased a V8 Mustang. Which is why I even felt like I could contribute to this thread. Had I not ever driven a V8 I wouldn't have posted.

Commenting on undergrad studies makes you older than I had thought, but still carrying a grudge from teenage years, really doesn't put you that far into your 20s. The fact that you have went that far in your education, but not gotten far along enough into a career to buy the car you want narrows it down even more (in referance to the miata thread).

Don't take this wrong, but I really do not think that a sports car is really a top priority for you. I know what it is like to drink cheap beer, and eat ramen noodles to have that dream car. I had a 69 GTO judge, and a 68 olds 442 when I was your age. If you leased a mustang but do not currently own one there is a reason

I think you are "ready" for a V8 manual sports car, when you meet the following criteria:

- Know your limitations
- Be truly considerate and aware of other drivers
- Value life, yours and others
- Believe and truly realize that you can get hurt and hurt others, possibly get killed or kill others with reckless driving.
- Never gotten a DUI ticket
- Have not gotten into a car accident for several years, e.g. at least 3 years
- Have not gotten a speeding ticket in several years, e.g. at least 3 years
- Can afford buying the car
- Can afford maintenance, repair and upkeep of the car
- Can afford paying for your car insurance

Yes, I also agree that age does not translate directly to experience or responsibility. But, I would point out that with age comes more opportunity for experiences, the question is whether one learns from them or not.

I don’t think you can just “get in a car, drive it, make your mistakes, take your lumps”…because your mistake(s) will effect more than just you. How about your family and friends, other people on the road, their family and friends, etc?

These are just some guidelines and my opinion.

Good luck.

Commenting on undergrad studies makes you older than I had thought, but still carrying a grudge from teenage years, really doesn't put you that far into your 20s. The fact that you have went that far in your education, but not gotten far along enough into a career to buy the car you want narrows it down even more (in referance to the miata thread).

Don't take this wrong, but I really do not think that a sports car is really a top priority for you. I know what it is like to drink cheap beer, and eat ramen noodles to have that dream car. I had a 69 GTO judge, and a 68 olds 442 when I was your age. If you leased a mustang but do not currently own one there is a reason


You are correct that I'm not too far into my 20's. The real reason I harbor a bit of of a grudge against people treating teens so poorly is because I'm a few months away from finishing graduate school (which is why I don't have a nice car) and I TA labs for undergrad students. Most of my students are 18-20 years old and I see on a daily basis how the university treats them and I know from my experiences with some of them that they do not deserve the reputation that they get simply because of their age.


And for the record I leased the mustang and didn't care for it at the time. It was enjoyable to drive but I had it back when I went to school in the north, and the winters and the snow made winter travel more of a pain than it needed to be (along with being short on funds for gas). Now that I've moved a bit further south I don't have to deal with that anymore.

I HATE the pontiac grand prix with a passion!!!!!!!!

That might have something to do with the fact that my first wife got mad one day, and traded in my old jaguar on one (it was a 72 in perfect condition.....she said she wanted a back seat!)
What a b i t c h. I don't like the FWD Grand Pricks either. But that is what my parents bought me when I was 16; wheels were wheels to me back then. Now, the RWD Grand Prixs can be fun if you set 'em up right...

Err, I'm gonna go sideways from the convos carrying on and put in my .02 as a guy who has done both sides of the fence...

So, I'm an unabashed H brand foolio, if anyone hasn't noticed. It goes back to my first car (and first love), a '91 Civic Si. My favorite thing with the H cars is the fact that they can be shoved to reasonable limits with reasonable safety in reasonable conditions reasonably often. They aren't fast, they don't have super-great "numbers", but every one I've ever driven is a blast to just go drive around in. I haven't owned a faster car than that Civic to this day, but I've had seat time in a number of pretty stonking quick cars. It's a good thing I like slow cars, because I'd probably be dead if I had a really fast one.

I'll say this. As an auto enthusiast who enjoys pushing the limits, I wouldn't dare trust myself with something owning like a Corvette, or even a Mustang. It's not reasonable or safe to try and push a car with limits like the Corvette's on public roads, and Lord knows I'm dumb enough to try. I had a Corvette for a weekend, and though I didn't kill myself, I wasn't pushing it terribly hard, either. The throttle response alone on that thing was enough to make you sweat a little, and it was just a stock C5. The most "crazy" thing I did was coaxe it into a "drift" on an on-ramp in Parma, OH, but that was a butt-puckering experience that I don't want to go through again unless I'm on a track. V8+VTEC_Dreams=An eventual tradgedy. Even on a track, I'm pretty sure I'm one of those drivers who has more foot then sense, and I would probably get myself in trouble there, too. Meh, call me a sissy. I don't care. I think of it myself as a sensible throttle addict.

I think I'm aware of these things only because I've been driving for almost ten years...and I assure you that I can drive as good as anyone on public roads, and can and do more than hold my own at autocrosses and track days. That very well may be a preface to why I know that even if I was "ready" for something super high powered (which I assuredly am as a driver), I probably wouldn't be safe with it (which I'm aware of as a relatively irresponsible human being).

Hence, my infatuation with Hondas, droptops, and cars that handle well. Droptops make it seem like you are going faster than you are, and it's hard to kill yourself when you're in a car that handles well, after all, and on-ramps are more fun when you don't have to worry about wrecking and dying.

Parma Ohio 'eh? What ramp was it in Parma?

I use to live in North Royalton. Small world.

I live in Oxford/Cincinnati OH, but I didn't know you got up north VTEC.

Yes, I am ready to drive a V8. I know everything about driving and I know that I can control all that power and I am the best driver in Perth.

I am obviously being sarcastic, I know nothing about driving in real life as I have had no experience on the road. Only experience I have had is driving my uncles Toyota Aygo manual 1.0L 5dr down the road and reversing my dads Falcon out of the carport. But what I posted up ^ is exactly the attitude of every 15 year old I know that has an interest in cars.

Wow i got a lot more responses than i was expecting. I am not going to quote anyone, because a lot of you made a lot of good points. I just want to rephrase a part of my question: Obviously the best way to learn how to do something is to do it, I strongly believe in TRIAL AND ERROR, but obviously not big errors while learning with a vehicle. How can i prepare myself to drive a car thats a v8rwd manual? I'l be specific, i REALLY want the GTO, i can afford it, i just KNOW unlike other people that I am not 100% ready for it. I made a thread about my friend with the c5 zo6 on track, he got that car after he totalled his lincoln ls, but that is no way enough experience for 16 year old to drive a manual c5 zo6. He is a very good driver now, believe me it sounds funny, but by driving his corvette all the time going to track all the time, and making a lot of mistakes, he knows his car well now. I probably won't be able to go to track, which I would not want to anyway, because all experienced drivers would be pissed at me for not knowin how to drive. I just want specific "to dos" and "not to dos" when learning to drive this, I am able to drive manual, and I've had a couple goes in my cousins 420rwhp trans am, but that was just around the block, and it was really scary. I am not worried as much about being pedal happy, because I got a 122mph speeding ticket 1 year ago and learned my lesson. I have not gotten a single ticket after, even though I have had some really fast cars on my hands. MY GREATEST WORRY: Being able to handle the car, thats pretty much it. The physics of a torquey rwd car are much different than any car ive had significant experience with. Even my friend with the zo6, he has some trouble at times. So please , simple to dos and not to dos, even though I will be doing the trial and error method, except in a deserted area.

Doesn't age=experience and maturity? Experience comes over time, and along with time comes age, so this only seems logical. The question in the thread is...who is truly ready for a v8..... WHAT EXPERIENCE QUALIFIES to own a v8 car? Any spoiled rat can buy a fast overpowered car, and i used the v8rwd example because its specific to my personal situation, but when can one confidently be the owner of a powerful rwd car confidently?

I am slightly older then Attaus and my point of view is the same as his sort of.. I kind of already grew out of reving my motor even though I hardly ever did it and I also never really did much street racing, every now and then I did it. I hope I am ready for a v8, i learned to drive stick in a 5.0 mustang when I was 12 and I am also building a v8 lol.

I've come to understand more about our members by reading this thread... and that isn't necessarily a good thing. For some people my respect has been reaffirmed, but for others, my disdain has only increased.

Oh well...

Nothing against you, Bofo. You, Attaus and VTEC have made the best posts in this thread, but some of the younger (and supposedly older) members are either using this as a chance to show off or trying to piss on the insurmountable awesomeness of senior members.

Those are usually the members that honestly don't contribute to the forum, im not saying that you have to but its nice to every now and then unless you are honestly trying to learn, very few are and claim high knowledge.

I live in Oxford/Cincinnati OH, but I didn't know you got up north VTEC.

Yeah, my entire extended family lives in Parma/Cuyahoga county/Cleveland.

I've got some roots up by the lake!! My Great grandmother had a cottage out at Ashtebula that's now gone, but I always hear stories about the area, and I've been up there more times than I can remember. The Corvette I had for a weekend was my uncle's, who lives in Parma. If you are familiar with the area, that entrance ramp into Independence going into Parma (State road, Snow road [?]) was the one where I ran out of traction. It's a good ramp :)

I hope that was not directed at me, because I never gave an age, and my point really was about experience level.

People racing NASCAR, would never be questioned about their ability. They obviously have the needed experience or they would not have the necessary license. There are many younger drivers who grew up in racing families, who are ready, but more who aren't

If you watch, the ones with the most to prove are generally not ready.
It wasn't directed at anyone. Sorry if it looked like it was aimed at you b/c my post was right below yours. I just wanted to point out that age does not determine what you're ready to drive. And yes, I do agree with your post.

Any spoiled rat can buy a fast overpowered car, and i used the v8rwd example because its specific to my personal situation, but when can one confidently be the owner of a powerful rwd car confidently?

I can't give you a pin-point answer, driving an 1988 Magna doesn't really give me much personal experience to feed off of really. Also complicates other attempts at contributing but that's another matter.

What I believe though, keeping in mind I'm not really experienced (so bear with me), is that it's a combination of things. It's knowing that you have enough self-control to keep from causing bad situations for you and others around you, it's knowing and understanding what you have under you, and it's having self-confidence (that includes having the skill to) in your own driver-craft to get out of tricky situations.

There may be something else I've missed out on, but those three things are what I would consider if I were to drive something powerful.

You have to be able to pass a 6G pipe weld test to be ready for a v8.

I think one post, in this thread, is truly profound. . That was VTEC's post, honestly, and without presence of an ego, explaining why he was not ready for a V8. I often disagree with him, and I actually do on this point as well, but his honesty about this, is something that I have to respect.. I think a large part of being ready for a true performance car is accepting your own shortcomings, and realizing what the possible results of your own lack can be

i am not going to say i am the greatest driver on earth because... i am far from it. but i am confident and don't get stressed out but driving. i do like to drive fast. but the only time i do is when i am the only one in the car and i am on abandoned country roads... which are in abundance where i live. if i did own a v8 i would have to drive it a fair bit to get completely used to it before i even thought about driving it even slightly fast. like when i first got my license and was driving my dads falcon xr6 around a lot. i was fairly used to the car at the time but still waited until i knew the car inside and out to step on it. i do speed fairly frequently. but only when by myself because if something does go wrong and i do crash i couldn't have the death of anyone else on my conscience.
what i am getting at is that anyone can drive a v8... but to drive one 'spirited' so to speak, you need to know the car very well and be used to it. and you also need to understand the effect that driving like a moron can cause on peoples lives. because when someone dies it does not just effect that person. it effects their family and friends as well

You have to be able to pass a 6G pipe weld test to be ready for a v8.

That counts me out, I can't even solder without showing off... and making a mess.

Ironically, I wasn't like that at all in the SS.

if i drove a v8 rwd car i would probably be dead or in hospital after about 10 mins on a twisty road drive with a very heavy foot.

So when are you coming to Australia?

:D

when i can swim pretty good, i cant afford flights lol

I am slightly older then Attaus and my point of view is the same as his sort of.. I kind of already grew out of reving my motor even though I hardly ever did it and I also never really did much street racing, every now and then I did it. I hope I am ready for a v8, i learned to drive stick in a 5.0 mustang when I was 12 and I am also building a v8 lol.

This is something many people just don't understand.....When I was starting out, there were not "Tuner" shops on every corner. There were not vast amounts of information available, just by turning on a computer. Everyone turned wrenches on their own vehicles. If you wanted information you went to a library, and tried to hang out with guys at the drag strip. I had subscriptions to 4 different automotive magazines by the time I was 13, and I raided my dad's stack, because he had different ones.. You had to have determination to build and maintain one....that really does give you a different outlook

I do admit I was not over revving my engine when I got my first V8.....But if any of you have heard a big block rev with three carbs, hooker headers, and glass packs, you will understand why.......it sounded WAY too cool. It would have been a shame not to rev it

I suppose you are "ready" when you have enough experience/common sense not to do anything stupid. For me, the first car I drove was an E39 M5 with a 400 hp V8. It was my dad's car, but I drove it a lot when I had my permit. At the same time, I was building up my 600 hp '67 Firebird. As soon as I had my license, that was my first car. I knew how fast things could go to **** in that car, or any other high powered car so I never had that "invincible" mentality about driving. So as far as I see, I was ready for it.

In direct response to your question, "what qualifies you to drive a V8" the simple answer is;

1. A driving license
2. A V8

That is all.

Common sense, experience, maturity, age are not needed to drive a V8

To take your question further, "How do I become a good driver of a V8" which is perhaps a better question. Again the answer is simple.

1. Start with a course.
2. Remeber a V8 rumble sounds good even when cruising slowly.
3. You can probably (depending on the car) beat 80% of every thing on the road, and the other nut should know that.
4. Blow off steam on a track or club day, drag.

Most of all, have healthy fun and stay alive.

Just my 2cts worth.

Common sense, experience, maturity, age are not needed to drive a V8

You're right..



That is, if your ultimate goal is to put the car into a wall.

You're right..



That is, if your ultimate goal is to put the car into a wall.

Not arguing with you, but should you read carefully, there is a difference between what qualifies you to drive a V8 and being a good driver.

For example, you drive a 1995 Camaro Z28 M6 T-top, what qualifies you to drive that at 17 years old? Common sense, experience, maturity, age?

Unfortunately even good drivers can put cars into walls :-) it is called having an accident.

Not arguing with you, but should you read carefully, there is a difference between what qualifies you to drive a V8 and being a good driver.

For example, you drive a 1995 Camaro Z28 M6 T-top, what qualifies you to drive that at 17 years old? Common sense, experience, maturity, age?

Unfortunately even good drivers can put cars into walls :-) it is called having an accident.I hate to admit it Attaus but he's right. I consider myself to be quite a good driver. I've also been in a couple or so accidents. A couple involved just me. Does that make me ineligible to continue driving cars that powerful?

I hate to admit it Attaus but he's right. I consider myself to be quite a good driver. I've also been in a couple or so accidents. A couple involved just me. Does that make me ineligible to continue driving cars that powerful?

yes. and as i have not yet been in an accident give them to me :) ill sell them back to you once you become a better driver though :)

One of the first cars that I had a drive in was a mates 350 Chevy Holden one tonner. The engine is as far from stock as you can go without recasting things and straping on some induction but if you aren't an idiot about it, you can quickly learn to respect the amount of power the car has.
Ravenous is a good example of that I guess, he had a 300hp, heavy, RWD car, and he is 'magically' still alive...

I've always thought that you're just as likely to kill yourself in a 4 cylinder, automatic econobox as you are in a V8, manual RWD performance car. It's just a matter of how mature you act whilst driving, which is exactly what Ghalos said in your first reply.

"Magically" being the operative word.

I treated that car a lot differently to the way I treated my other cars. The gemi, for isntance, was a bomb, got flogged and responded well to the flogging. It went through one clutch, and two prop shafts and three sets of tyres in the 9 months I owned it. The V8 I fooled around in, but I never took it close to the limit. Drifting in the wet was easily the stupidest thing I ever did in it, but its also probably the only properly stupid thing I did. Circle work doesn't count.

Not arguing with you, but should you read carefully, there is a difference between what qualifies you to drive a V8 and being a good driver.

For example, you drive a 1995 Camaro Z28 M6 T-top, what qualifies you to drive that at 17 years old? Common sense, experience, maturity, age?

Unfortunately even good drivers can put cars into walls :-) it is called having an accident.

What qualifies me? My ability to not floor it everywhere.. my skill with a stick, my experience, the fact that I've raced in games since I was 9 to sharpen my reactions..

I know that good drivers can too. But that percentage is much, much smaller than the idiots who just plain can't drive, or are too stupid to know when not to be reckless.

I don't care what you guys say, Im going to burnout at every red light, stop sign I see, im not even going to check my piston to valve clearance after I put the motor together, just put it that way.

Now by being "ready to drive a V8", would driving in an SUV or a C3 Corvette count because I've driven both those more than once in only the couple of years that I've had my license. But, I never really drove those things too hard (in the Suburban, I would occasionally have the urge to stomp on it just to hear the roar of a Vortec). I can say that driving both of those prepared me for driving my current car (a blend of a 4-door SUV with cloth seats and other basic "luxury" things with the size of a car which has no ABS nor traction control).

........ the fact that I've raced in games since I was 9 to sharpen my reactions.. .

Really no answer to that one.

I feel it is important to answer a question precisely, and it seems there is confusion about what the question actually asks. i.e. What qualifies some-one to driver a V8.

So just to clarify,

Qualifying means meeting the basic requirements to carry out a certain action.

Maturity is an action due to a state of mind, not an age.

Experience is an action of learning, over time, in real life situations.

To enlarge the debate what it takes to drive a V8 sensibly and well:

Being a good driver, is basically a combination of experience to road situations, the ability to master the vehicle, the maturity to consider the environment in which we are traveling and the ability to put it all together.

There exist people more or less talented at this combination of qualities which enables them to be a good driver young.

But;

At a guess, I would say that 80% of the US population meets the above criteria of being a "good" driver. Otherwise the roads would be full of bodies.

Although this thread is not about me, I would like to illustrate the following; (Figures are approximations)

I drive a car that represents approximately 10% of the population maybe 1% of sales for the builder, Volkswagen, a Golf V R32. I (now) have a Corvette Z06 of which I believe some 7'000 odd are made each year.

So my choice of cars has put me in approximately 5%-10% of the European population who drives a car over 250 BHP every day.

Only maybe 1% actually do any track work, and I do.

So at the very least I am in a population of 5% Globally who (will) drives a car over 500 BHP, on a track.

It could be argued that I am a better than average driver, averaging 2 accidents in 27 years and having avoided countless others.

BUT I AM STILL GOING ON A COURSE WITH MY NEW CORVETTE Z06 because I do not pretend to be competent enough to it fast and well on track, because I learn and gain experience every day!

Admitting that makes all of the difference, between a qualified to drive driver and a good driver.

So please everybody, no more references to experience through games.

I don't care how old you are.. you can't say that you don't have better reactions through games. It doesn't make you a better driver at all, but saying it doesn't help makes me think you haven't played a game. I guess it HAS to be real life to give you any benefit.. right?

To be completely honest, your whole argument is stupid. Half of it can be cut out, and has nothing to do with your original statement. Which was;

Common sense, experience, maturity, age are not needed to drive a V8

I said, yes, if your ultimate goal is to put it into a wall.

I understand that people make mistakes. Even the best make mistakes. I'm not disputing that.. you're debating that with yourself.

But.. you're going to tell me that the reason your Z06 is still on the road is not because of those 4 things you mentioned?

You're taking qualified as a technicality. This is qualified as in.. qualified to drive a high powered V8. Driving the Camaro is very, very different from the Prelude. I would never recommend this as a first car. But.. according to you, all you need is a driving license, and you're set to drive whatever you want. Right? Because they would be a good driver with an SUV, they can drive a 6spd Z06, right?

This is exactly what we're arguing. No offense, but we didn't need some moron to come in and tell us that you're qualified to drive a V8 with a driving license. We already knew that. The point is.. at what point in your experience can you actually drive that car every day? Through hard rain, dust, snow, whatever. What happens when someone challenges you to race? Do you race even when you can't handle it?

All it takes is a driving license to drive a 500hp Corvette?

Ok, buddy. You can keep thinking that.. I don't even care.

In a way, he is right.

But, in pretty much all other ways, he's very, very wrong.

See, I'm 17, and I passed my test.......6 and a bit weeks a go. I can drive, and I'm a pretty good, average driver. I know what to look for, I'm consientious towards other drivers, I don't drive everywhere doing 30 over the limit, and I know how to drive my car.

However, the whole context of this arguement is based on driving a high powered car, nevermind just V8's, FAST.

If you gave me a Z06, yes, I'd be hellishly scared, but if your just asking me to drive it about, I probably could. I'd need a bit of time to get use to the clutch, taller gears, etc, but, I would be able to drive it on the road, which points out Attaus' point really well. He doesn't get into his Camaro, dump the clutch at 4000rpm everywhere he goes. He has that restraint, which, in someways, means he is ready to drive a V8.

However, if you told me to get into a Z06, and drive it fast, I couldn't. I have no experience with power, no experience with RWD, not enough experience full stop.

However, one thing that seems to be missed a lot on this website is the fact that, with cars, you essentially must learn by doing. That's why I think it's a bit sad when you see a bunch of 15 year olds on this site telling people they shouldn't buy a car because they will inevitably crash it. Whatever gives you the right to say that ? And, if you had the chance, would you not buy something with a bit more power for your first car ? I know I would, and I know for a fact I'd get into some hairy moments with it, but hell, how else am I suppose to learn ?

There is only so much experience you can gain before you have to step up to the big boys. I'm sure that I'm not ready for anything powerful yet. Driving it at speed, I wouldn't be all that safe, but then again, if somebody gave me a fast V8 car tomorrow, going to attack corners at the edge of performance would be on of the last things on my mind.

Your always going to be ready to drive a car. Whether you can control that car when you start to build speed, is in my mind, only something you can gather through practice and experience. Age is one of those factors, but if you drive everyday, your gona learn a lot quicker than someone who just drives once a week.

In a way, he is right.

But, in pretty much all other ways, he's very, very wrong.

See, I'm 17, and I passed my test.......6 and a bit weeks a go. I can drive, and I'm a pretty good, average driver. I know what to look for, I'm consientious towards other drivers, I don't drive everywhere doing 30 over the limit, and I know how to drive my car.

However, the whole context of this arguement is based on driving a high powered car, nevermind just V8's, FAST.

If you gave me a Z06, yes, I'd be hellishly scared, but if your just asking me to drive it about, I probably could. I'd need a bit of time to get use to the clutch, taller gears, etc, but, I would be able to drive it on the road, which points out Attaus' point really well. He doesn't get into his Camaro, dump the clutch at 4000rpm everywhere he goes. He has that restraint, which, in someways, means he is ready to drive a V8.

However, if you told me to get into a Z06, and drive it fast, I couldn't. I have no experience with power, no experience with RWD, not enough experience full stop.

However, one thing that seems to be missed a lot on this website is the fact that, with cars, you essentially must learn by doing. That's why I think it's a bit sad when you see a bunch of 15 year olds on this site telling people they shouldn't buy a car because they will inevitably crash it. Whatever gives you the right to say that ? And, if you had the chance, would you not buy something with a bit more power for your first car ? I know I would, and I know for a fact I'd get into some hairy moments with it, but hell, how else am I suppose to learn ?

There is only so much experience you can gain before you have to step up to the big boys. I'm sure that I'm not ready for anything powerful yet. Driving it at speed, I wouldn't be all that safe, but then again, if somebody gave me a fast V8 car tomorrow, going to attack corners at the edge of performance would be on of the last things on my mind.

Your always going to be ready to drive a car. Whether you can control that car when you start to build speed, is in my mind, only something you can gather through practice and experience. Age is one of those factors, but if you drive everyday, your gona learn a lot quicker than someone who just drives once a week.

Thank you, my point exactly.

And as to Attaus' comment about moron, I will let that pass. As all input is good input, provided it remains a debate.

Really no answer to that one.

I feel it is important to answer a question precisely, and it seems there is confusion about what the question actually asks. i.e. What qualifies some-one to driver a V8.

So just to clarify,

Qualifying means meeting the basic requirements to carry out a certain action.

Maturity is an action due to a state of mind, not an age.

Experience is an action of learning, over time, in real life situations.

To enlarge the debate what it takes to drive a V8 sensibly and well:

Being a good driver, is basically a combination of experience to road situations, the ability to master the vehicle, the maturity to consider the environment in which we are traveling and the ability to put it all together.

There exist people more or less talented at this combination of qualities which enables them to be a good driver young.

But;

At a guess, I would say that 80% of the US population meets the above criteria of being a "good" driver. Otherwise the roads would be full of bodies.

Although this thread is not about me, I would like to illustrate the following; (Figures are approximations)

I drive a car that represents approximately 10% of the population maybe 1% of sales for the builder, Volkswagen, a Golf V R32. I (now) have a Corvette Z06 of which I believe some 7'000 odd are made each year.

So my choice of cars has put me in approximately 5%-10% of the European population who drives a car over 250 BHP every day.

Only maybe 1% actually do any track work, and I do.

So at the very least I am in a population of 5% Globally who (will) drives a car over 500 BHP, on a track.

It could be argued that I am a better than average driver, averaging 2 accidents in 27 years and having avoided countless others.

BUT I AM STILL GOING ON A COURSE WITH MY NEW CORVETTE Z06 because I do not pretend to be competent enough to it fast and well on track, because I learn and gain experience every day!

Admitting that makes all of the difference, between a qualified to drive driver and a good driver.

So please everybody, no more references to experience through games.

I am not trying to be critical here, but most people do not even understand what 500hp means. Even on here it is just a number for bragging rights. Honestly how many people do you know who really understand how unforgiving that much power can be.

really after thinking about it..

i think kids interested in performance vehicles should start with a C8....why?

Most v8 cars kids can get ahold of a big steel lock boxes....

Sure they can make power, but so can any other lightweight honda civic..

why not have the stiffest material around you at the time of impact.

I am not trying to be critical here, but most people do not even understand what 500hp means. Even on here it is just a number for bragging rights. Honestly how many people do you know who really understand how unforgiving that much power can be.

About the same number who understand the posts we make about it at a guess.

Personally I agree with you, not many. Which was, as you state, the gist of my post.

But as both Drifter and Sparky point out, you have to start some where to be able to gain experience and I still firmly believe that a track course is a must do, for anyone serious in owning and driving quickly a "powerful" car. Powerful as in fast.

The only form of qualification can only come from having some form of advanced driving training.

I may not be a gamer, but I would be interested to understand how a game increases reactions. In the game environment, even with steering wheel and pedal kit, the reactions, I would think are due to visual impulses only. (I have been in ICT Consulting and Auditing for 20 years, so no lectures about technology please :) )

Peripheral vision is an important part of learning to drive fast, for example, as this diminishes with speed. Plus the feedback from the steering wheel, and pressure against the back, neck and buttocks, give the feel of what the chassis is doing. And of course the sound of the mechanics and heat. I admit I am intrigued to learn how gaming can increase reaction speeds as a substitute for road/track work. Even as a form of practice.

Am I wrong in thinking that, the 2 dimensional aspect of the game limits reaction practice to what is being seen during the game only, and that from a number of perspectives, not necessarily those seen over a bonnet, resulting in steering wheel movements or button pushing, to compensate? Plus the programming cannot/does not simulate real braking effort under power, nor the real reactions of the car. (Some are good granted)

Frankly playing football is better for the hand-eye co-ordination and reactions in my book. As you learn distances too.

Flight simulators for fast jet pilots, are a different affair entirely, as they replicate the physical environment the pilot will face. That is why they cost so much.

I am at a loss as to how gaming can "help" qualify some-body for driving a V8.

The only experience that counts is doing it for real. To start with, on a track in a formal course, before buying the car.

I firmly believe that a good driving game can prove quite helpful when learning driving. I'm a living example of it.

Before I start, I want to point out that I understand completely as to why someone would have a hard time beliving that a driving game can actually be useful in learning driving. I realize that the majority of people who play racing games, and usually would make that type of statement, either suck royally, are complete morons, are playing the wrong (fake) racers or are some combination of those factors.

I'm also making these claims based largely on personal experience.

I've been adamantly playing the Gran Turismo series of racing games since I was nine. Gran Turismo was largely, until roughly ten months ago, my free time in a nutshell.

At this point, I feel I should (try to) justify the credibility of Gran Turismo. In case you're not familiar, Gran Turismo is a popular series of racing games exclusively sold for the Playstation/PS2/PS3. The first installment was released in 1998, and is one of the best selling Playstation(1) games ever made. It's claim to fame is it's extensive and long car lists, and remarkably realistic driving (and car tuning) physics. (The original slogan was "The Real Driving Simulator") Since it's first installment, critics and car guys raved about it's excellent replication of real vehicle physics. Over the course of the series, the physcis have improved and become even closer to reality. When Gran Turismo 3 (2001) hit the market, there was an article* in Road & Track magazine (I'm sure there are other articles in other magazines too) about the game's 'eerie' realism. The author of the article, Sam Mitani, went to the Motegi circuit to hot lap a Honda NSX Type S Zero. He then test drove the same car, and the same track, but on Gran Turismo 3 (using the Logitech steering wheel developed for that game). He said it was eerily like the real car; it sounded the same, it understeered under the same conditions, it got a little sideways under the same conditions; it was a nearly exact virtual replication of the car he drove. Kazunori Yamauchi,the creator of the series, said that people find it so realistic it's actually being used to learn how to drive.

I've been "playing" this series of games since I was nine. Over the course of all of those thousands of hours driving, tuning, examing what could be improved, and then doing it, I've gotten good at it. I've gained what I think is an excellent understanding of vehicle physics, and I have Gran Turismo to thank for that.

To build on that theoretical knowledge, I got myself the special Logitcech steering wheel specifically produced for for Gran Turismo 4 (2005). It features 900 degree rotation, a sequential shifter, and very heavy, communicative, precise, and realistic force feedback. I have driven a number of real cars, with a variety of steering feels, so I feel I can say it's an excellent and realistic wheel. Through working with that wheel, and some of the best simulated vehicle physics availible to the public (via Gran Turismo 4) I developed an excellent grasp of the necessary hand/eye/foot co-ordination that you would need to drive a real car. That, along with an even more intensive improvement of my knowledge of physics and driving technique, set me up to be really decent driver... before actually driving.

I didn't actually think of any of this until I first took the wheel in that parking lot some two years ago. I picked up the vehicle's traits in a matter of seconds, and I was driving it like a seasoned driver in few seconds more; none of that usual teenage jumpy/sudden/painful driving, just smoothness. When I actually started pushing it/driving like what most people would call an idiot, I realized everythig I had learned on my couch applied to what I was doing. I was able to judge and guage exactly what that little Chevy would do because of my "training" with Gran Turismo.

More (real-world) driving has only further cemented this realization. Right from when I first got my license, I was asked things like "Have you done this before" or, more in reference to the early parking lot episode "Where the hell did you learn how to do that?" I've pushed it through narrow mountain roads, driven a race spec go-kart, navigated through a blizzard with skating rink roads, and lots of responsible commuting around town, and I can say comfortably that I was able to do all of that as well as I could with so little real-world experience because of the physcis I learned and the technique I perfected playing Gran Turismo for so long. Even with things that weren't in the game (like snow), I was able to do them with complete confidence and control because of what I learned about vehicle physics.

Having said all of that, I don't think I'm the best driver ever, and I know for fact that I could improve a lot more in the real world. I realize that cars can be very dangerous, and I have a tremendous amout of respect for them and their power (the sharp and seemingly telepathic Fit was actually pretty spooky at first, having come from a van that liked to ponder about steering inputs). I respect traffic laws, the people around me and the cars I'm driving; I don't scream through turns like I do in GT4. I'm responsible, safe, and considerate, and those are what's most important me as a driver; I would not comprimise those for a bit of fun.

In conclusion, while I don't think everyone would be able to learn from a game, I know I did, and it's helped me be a skilled and smart driver, even though I've only been on the road for a year.




Either that, or I'm just a natural.:D

*http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=7&article_id=90

I am not trying to be critical here, but most people do not even understand what 500hp means. Even on here it is just a number for bragging rights. Honestly how many people do you know who really understand how unforgiving that much power can be.500 horsepower is WAY out of the realm of reality for 95% of the people here. Most will never have a car with near that much power. It's just a fact.

I may not be a gamer, but I would be interested to understand how a game increases reactions.Professional drag racers use drag racing games to improve their reaction times. Games CAN help but... don't think that because you can go through the entire Black List without losing a race that you are qualified to race a CGT... lol

About the same number who understand the posts we make about it at a guess.

Personally I agree with you, not many. Which was, as you state, the gist of my post.

But as both Drifter and Sparky point out, you have to start some where to be able to gain experience and I still firmly believe that a track course is a must do, for anyone serious in owning and driving quickly a "powerful" car. Powerful as in fast.

The only form of qualification can only come from having some form of advanced driving training.

I may not be a gamer, but I would be interested to understand how a game increases reactions. In the game environment, even with steering wheel and pedal kit, the reactions, I would think are due to visual impulses only. (I have been in ICT Consulting and Auditing for 20 years, so no lectures about technology please :) )

Peripheral vision is an important part of learning to drive fast, for example, as this diminishes with speed. Plus the feedback from the steering wheel, and pressure against the back, neck and buttocks, give the feel of what the chassis is doing. And of course the sound of the mechanics and heat. I admit I am intrigued to learn how gaming can increase reaction speeds as a substitute for road/track work. Even as a form of practice.

Am I wrong in thinking that, the 2 dimensional aspect of the game limits reaction practice to what is being seen during the game only, and that from a number of perspectives, not necessarily those seen over a bonnet, resulting in steering wheel movements or button pushing, to compensate? Plus the programming cannot/does not simulate real braking effort under power, nor the real reactions of the car. (Some are good granted)

Frankly playing football is better for the hand-eye co-ordination and reactions in my book. As you learn distances too.

Flight simulators for fast jet pilots, are a different affair entirely, as they replicate the physical environment the pilot will face. That is why they cost so much.

I am at a loss as to how gaming can "help" qualify some-body for driving a V8.

The only experience that counts is doing it for real. To start with, on a track in a formal course, before buying the car.

The story of games helping your driving skills just does not fly with me. When you repeat an action enough, it becomes a natural reaction. Tell me how a game can make turning into a skid a normal reaction. In a game if you mess up you just start over. In life if you mess up you might not get another chance.
I had an advantage over most here. Because my family raced, and had cattle ranches, there was always cars or working pickups with the biggest V8s available for me to use. I had been driving for 2 years before driving my first non V8 car

It's occurred to me that this thread is pretty well done and doesn't make sense anyway... Let me tell you why.

You can't just say "Am I ready for a V8". That's dumb. Let's get technical... if you're not ready for a 'V8' then you're not even ready for a modern 6 cylinder (side note: If you think you're "ready" for a 6 cylinder, go play with an air cooled 911 Turbo. lol). Let's compare:

Are you ready for a 2005 Hyundai Tiburon V6? 2.7 liters...

0-60 in 7.9

1/4 mile in 15.6


Then you should be ready for a 1976 Corvette. 5.7 liters...

0-60 in 8.1

1/4 mile in 16.5



Now, this is only in reference to power. How it's controlled is different but just saying "are you ready for a V8' is too broad a question.

That;s what I said before. If this thread was in reference to power, it probably wouldn't have gotten the attention it had though, cos it would just have turned into a bragging war more than likely.

However, I'm interested in Heretics point of power. 500hp, is, and always will be, just a number, and some letters. To get a reference to how much power that actually is, you have to at least drive something. By drive I mean out on the roads, some period of time, testing it's powerband etc. My car has, well, it had new 110hp. It weighs more than a Corvette, and I think that car is quite nippy.

However, with a car like that, you can afford to take liabilities. I can literally slam my foot to the floor, and I'll just smoothly accelerate. With 500hp, I couldn't afford to do that.

That's why I'm a big believer in the whole pyramid scale of cars. I'm only 17, so I can't afford to buy, well, any car, I can't afford to go to track days, etc, so, getting better driving skills to drive more high performance cars, the only way I can go (at the moment) is to drive cars progressively. For example, put me into a 500hp corvette, we would have problems. Put me in to a 150hp 3-series, I can learn more.
Progression, to me, is another key factor in driving.

You've got a good point. Let's look at this... A 500 hp Z06 Corvette is a completely different animal than a 500 hp big block 69 Camaro. You're right Sparky, horsepower really is just a number, to a point. In all the time I've been on this forum I've pushed and pushed the fact that gearing is JUST AS IMPORTANT as horsepower... as is torque. A lot of people just don't listen (not you Sparky). It gets to the point where I just get frustrated and let these kids think whatever jeremy clarkson and paul walker tell them...

That's the thing though, power is one thing, gearing is another, torque is another, suspension is another........it's like one question after the other, some people understand that ALL of it is what makes a car the car, some just look at power and make an assumption.

However I can soughta void my own point, as power is probably the most important one, because, all in all, that is the one you are most directly involved with, maybes apart from steering. But, your sought of most involved in a....you can change it in an instant way, whereas, you can't do that to the handling, or the drivetrain of the car.

Theres so much to argue about, but a lot of it gets over looked. It's also interesting that in this thread, they read V8, and assumed RWD. That's not a bad assumption, but it didn't get mentioned.

I think it would be interesting to see if some of the lesser experienced members think they could drive a RWD car, even with just slight experience with FWD. I'd be extremely wary, well, I will be extremely wary the first time I step into any alternative drive other than front wheel drive.

My first car when I was 17 was a 1994 Mazda 626 4 banger. I learned to drive on my dad's Ram 1500 pickup, and after drving the truck, the Mazda was quick. Since then, the tranny in the Mazda crapped the bed and my replacement car was a 2004 Chrysler Sebring V6 coupe. It's a pretty quick car, 200 HP and 200 lb. ft of torque and can do 0-60 in about 7.3 seconds. Handles way better and accelerates much quicker than my older Mazda. At first, it took me a while to learn how to deal with the extra 80 or so horsepower over the Mazda, but I eventually got the hang of it. As some people have said, it's about trial and error, actually getting into the car and getting to know the feel of it. My girlfriend's father has a 2003 Mustang GT, and on occassion he lets me take it out, becuase he knows I love muscle cars. When I first drove it, I would chirp the tires, and I'll admit, I was addicted to the V8 rumble and the plant-you-in-your-seat acceleration. However, you eventaully get used to the car, and while I still from time to time really stomp on the Mustang, I can also drive it around town in a civil manner. I also have driven my uncle's 2005 Mercedes SL500, and that's just as fast as the Mustang. However, I know better than to drive like a maniac. I know that I'm far from the best driver on these boards or anywhere for that matter, but I'd say that I've driven a decent variety of vehicles. Like may people have said, it takes experience and trial and error to get to know a car.

The thing is that just because you're in a high powered car doesn't mean you have to floor it all the time.

The thing is that just because you're in a high powered car doesn't mean you have to floor it all the time.

That's exactly true. Many people believe that just because you own a Mustang, Viper, Corvette, or what have you, you must drive like a maniac all the time. Like I said earlier, when I drive my uncle's SL500 or the 2003 Mustang GT, I understand the power those cars have and I respect the fact that if you act like a showoff, the car will have no problem with ending your fun real quick. I mean, if someone handed me the keys to a Viper or a Z06, I would crap my pants. Yea they are really cool cars to watch videos of on the internet, and I say to myself "Man I'd kill for a Viper!" but when I really think about, I know the only person I'd be killing is myself. I understand that a few people on these boards have racing/high-end car experience, and that's awesome, I truly envy the skills you guys possess. For now, I'm happy with my Sebring and the occassional drive in my uncles Mercedes or my girlfriend's father's Mustang, and I someday hope to own a Vette/Viper, but as of right now, I can neither afford or handle a car of that scope.

Hey Gino. You'll like this. My little sister goes to college in SoCal. She was raised around cars and race cars. She raced karts and started racing sprint cars in jr high. She spent a few months training in an Outlaw but prefers the smaller Sprint cars (Outlaws ARE scary cars... lol). She's taken 8 second cars down the track and can take my Fiat around Willow faster than most of my racing buddies. Anyway, I told you that to tell you this... When I first made a profit here I bought her a Boxster (she's a Porsche fan). She wanted a Sebring. That's one of her favorite cars. She can drive anything, was given a Porsche, and would still rather have a Chrysler! lol

I happen to think the Sebring is a damn nice car...

I think you guys are overdoing it with the experiencing horsepower.. Imagine something with only 350hp that can hook like a bat out of hell.

Hey Gino. You'll like this. My little sister goes to college in SoCal. She was raised around cars and race cars. She raced karts and started racing sprint cars in jr high. She spent a few months training in an Outlaw but prefers the smaller Sprint cars (Outlaws ARE scary cars... lol). She's taken 8 second cars down the track and can take my Fiat around Willow faster than most of my racing buddies. Anyway, I told you that to tell you this... When I first made a profit here I bought her a Boxster (she's a Porsche fan). She wanted a Sebring. That's one of her favorite cars. She can drive anything, was given a Porsche, and would still rather have a Chrysler! lol

I happen to think the Sebring is a damn nice car...

That's awesome that your sister has those skills. From what I understand from reading these boards, you have alot of racing experience too. Just out of curiosity, have you driven anything that really scared you?

And yea, I love my Sebring. You don't see many of the 2 door V6 coupes where I live. They have a unique look. At first I was gonna get the 2 door Dodge Stratus, but then I saw the Chrysler version, and something about it just looks better than the Stratus.

While I think it's hilarious that Leman thinks that the best way to get experience for a high powered car is through track days (since it's so easy to actually find a track then book a Z06 for it.. without prior experience), you all have a point. The best way to learn something is to do it. But what happens when you don't have a $70,000 car at your expense to learn to drive? You start small. Get a 4 cylinder. Something cheap to drive. Who knows, maybe it can have some power. Once you learn the mechanics of driving, then you can start pushing it. THEN you can move up and get a more powerful car. If you honestly think the best way to learn to drive a 500hp V8 is to take it to a track, you're a lot more naive then I imagined. Simply because driving it fast is not the only tough aspect of owning a powerful car. Not all V8's have the luxury of traction control. Try turning yours off and launching in the rain. Yeah.. it's not fun. And definitely not something I would do on my first time out.. not even my first week.

V8 or not - There are speed limits and if you are deemed good enough to get your license you should be able to handle the majority of production vehicles...

V8's are fun given the appropriate circumstances but there are road rules for a reason.

It's occurred to me that this thread is pretty well done and doesn't make sense anyway... Let me tell you why.



The thing is that just because you're in a high powered car doesn't mean you have to floor it all the time.

V8 or not - There are speed limits and if you are deemed good enough to get your license you should be able to handle the majority of production vehicles...

V8's are fun given the appropriate circumstances but there are road rules for a reason.

I firmly believe that a good driving game can prove quite helpful when learning driving. I'm a living example of it.



While I think it's hilarious that Leman thinks that the best way to get experience for a high powered car is through track days (since it's so easy to actually find a track then book a Z06 for it.. without prior experience), you all have a point.

Well Attaus, I have learnt about you in three posts.

This thread is indeed done and the point made.

The above covers it all.

1. Attaus re-read you answer and then think again. No you would not find it difficult to get track time with a Z06, if you have one you have the experience and money! And yes there are those that have more money than sense. Of course there are those that lack both money and sense.

And yes track time IS important to learn fast driving. Please READ before insulting peoples experience and intelligence. It is boring.

(Exactly the point: wanna koenigsegg)

2. We have learnt that some simulators are good, in the right hands, and help start driving. (Great post ornelius Van)

3. We are agreed that there is no formal qualification to drive a V8. (As usual on the money, monkeyfkker.)

4. We are also in agreement that nothing beats real life learning.

5. We all agree that a 500 BHP + car is out of the reach both financially and in expertise of most. (Again: monkeyfkker)

So we are done.

Of course Attaus can have the last word by all means, be my guest.

The thing is that just because you're in a high powered car doesn't mean you have to floor it all the time.
yeah you just need to be calm and concient of what you are doing , don't matter if you drive a fiat uno or a z06.
driving fast in any kind of car is risk for you and other peoples.you need to have this in your mind most of time.

from personal experience it's a VERY good my first vehicle was a jeep

regardless of it's lack of a airbag it's a fairly safe vehicle, with a monocoque chassis thats basically a roll cage, and in the case of a front end collision i've got a 4 foot block of iron between me and whatever hit me.

it has decent enugh power to potentially get me in trouble, but not enough to get me in bad trouble. i'm a fairly responsible driver most the time, but occasioanly i drive that thing like it's a vette. when it's wet out ( i live in washington so this is almost always) I can burnout for miles, I can drift around corners, and I've devoloped the skill of being able to spin my truck 180 (or more if I wanted) ((a skilled deloped in empty parking spaces and used infrequently))

I do things with that truck that most people would never think possible. seriously the stigma about rolling over suv's is so horrible. i can feel the roll and the g forces and what not n a turn, but i never feel like it's going over. for an suv my jeep is pretty damn sporty, imo

and at the same time I'm dieing to get my hands on a real sports car. the amount of fun I'd have, well, it wouldnt be legal, lol. but in a sports car I cant drive over sidewalks and curbs and parking spaces, and go nuts in empty corn feilds, ect.