Animals, Hippies, Etc

bossesjoe · Sep 11, 2006, 4:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Im not arguing that we are worse in a sense that we are less dominant, but rather in a sense that we are cruel and cold hearted. Have you ever seen a predator hunt for fun? Humans on the other hand frequently hunt for leisure and sport.

Well my cat hunts, and kills a number of animals but doesn't eat them because we feed her. It's common in most animals to hunt every chance they get, even if they don't need the food. So is that cruel, are we cruel, what are you basing your morals off?

Can an animal even contemplate mercy?

Just because humans are smart enough to consider such issues doesn't put us below organisms who don't understand the existence of such issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfire

But that is not a good thing. Ever stopped to consider that we are basically one day going to be the cause of our own demise? We have already advanced far enough in technological warfare, right to the point where we could already blow up the earth many times over. In a way, having the ability to build such incredible machines is considered ingenius. But not actually knowing what the effect these weapons will have is downright idiotic. We are setting ourselves up for disaster with our intellectual minds.

You can talk about doomsday all you want, it doesn't matter. We are smarter then you make it seem. Organisms will act in what they see as self interest, if that's long or short term, I don't know.

It's idiotic to talk about nuclear weapons here. Had there been no nuclear weapons do you think we'd still be calling the cold war, "cold"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfire

I never said I chose animals over humans, I merely said that animals should have all the same rights as humans. They are, afterall, living, breathing and feeling organisms just like us. And like it or not, we are animals.

That's nice and ideological but it's impractical and ridiculous. We are the dominant species and we can do what we want. Now, I believe in conservation because I see it in our best interests, but don't think that animals have inherent rights.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfire

The concept of rights are just words on a piece of paper. Everyday, so many peoples rights are abused all over the world. Those rights that everyone is given are pretty shabbily enforced if you ask me. Also, nature has order too. If it didnt, the worlds' ecosystems would have collapsed by now.

Nature has order? The order that nature has is by no means inherent or designed truth. The order that nature finds itself has evolved out of the realities of life over thousands of years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfire

No species has ever been on the brink of total annihilation either. We are the only species that is smart enough and so technologically advanced that we can build such amazing societies. We are the only species that can single handedly destroy every other race, and we are practically doing that right now even as I type this. The thing is, we are too stupid to see what effect this might have on us. We are sealing our own fate right now without even realizing it. We are going to be the cause of our own demise, and we will have no one to blame but ourselves, and our corrupt superiority.

No species has ever been on the brink of total annihilation either? I can name a bunch that were on the brink of annihilation, right before they went extinct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfire

Smart? I think not.

I'm sure you'll go on a enlighten the entire human race to all our mistakes.

lambo or holden · Sep 11, 2006, 4:42 PM

Quote:

Well my cat hunts, and kills a number of animals but doesn't eat them because we feed her. It's common in most animals to hunt every chance they get, even if they don't need the food. So is that cruel, are we cruel, what are you basing your morals off?

Can an animal even contemplate mercy?

A cat hunts for exersice, incase that he/she doesn't get feed or to give gifts to its master. And more than anything its subconsiouse nature. For thousnds of years its ansestors were hunting everychance they could incase something went wrong. Cats don't have a huge brain or complex thinking patterens like we do so it just follows it instinks. Just like young childeren who sleep with the light on because its been imprinted in there brains because out ansestors sleept by fires to keep predators away.

We as the dominate species ave to stick up for those who cant. Its like sticking up for your weaker friend when a bully trys to get them.

Heretic · Sep 11, 2006, 4:54 PM

arguably the most notable "hunter" in America is Ted Nuggent, and he brags about nut buying meat in 20 years. How is this less civilized than getting a steak at a grocery store? My family owned cattle ranches, and because of this I have seen what happens in feedlots. It is not pretty, but this is how it will be until we all start eating tofu burgers

Spitfire · Sep 11, 2006, 5:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossesjoe

Well my cat hunts, and kills a number of animals but doesn't eat them because we feed her. It's common in most animals to hunt every chance they get, even if they don't need the food. So is that cruel, are we cruel, what are you basing your morals off?

Can an animal even contemplate mercy?

Just because humans are smart enough to consider such issues doesn't put us below organisms who don't understand the existence of such issues.

I never said we were below other animals. And in the case of your cat, she hunts not for fun, but for practice and because it is what comes naturally to her. She, like all cats, were descendants of the bigger cats who all need to hunt to survive. Humans hunt both for the need to survive and for pleasure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossesjoe

You can talk about doomsday all you want, it doesn't matter. We are smarter then you make it seem. Organisms will act in what they see as self interest, if that's long or short term, I don't know.

It's idiotic to talk about nuclear weapons here. Had there been no nuclear weapons do you think we'd still be calling the cold war, "cold"?

So you think Iraq built all those weapons of mass destruction, and then decided just not to use them? No, they had weapons capable of of inflicting amazing amounts of damage just waiting to be deployed.

If organisms only look out for Numero Uno, how do you explain the many brave firefighters who rushed into the world trade centers, and put their own lives at risk to save others? How do you explain peacekeeping operations? They were heros, and dieing to save others, as brave and noble as it is, isnt exactly looking out for their own self interest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossesjoe

That's nice and ideological but it's impractical and ridiculous. We are the dominant species and we can do what we want. Now, I believe in conservation because I see it in our best interests, but don't think that animals have inherent rights.

If conservation is in our best interests, then we can hardly do whatever the hell we want, dont you think? If we do whatever the hell we want and destroy whatever we want, it is going to have a negative effect on our lives. So in a sense, we are not all powerful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossesjoe

Nature has order? The order that nature has is by no means inherent or designed truth. The order that nature finds itself has evolved out of the realities of life over thousands of years.

Yes, nature has order. It is a balance of all living things. Basic biology. For example, you have a population of bears and deer. It starts off with the bear eating a lot of deer. Food is plentyful, and the bears thrive and multiply. But what happens is as the bear population grows, the deer population diminishes. Food is scarce, and the number of bears drops off. Since there arent many predators around, the deer population begins to regrow. And this pattern keeps going, and it switches every few years. If that isnt order, then what is? Nature conducts itself by itself, and has been doing so long before the arrival of we humans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossesjoe

No species has ever been on the brink of total annihilation either? I can name a bunch that were on the brink of annihilation, right before they went extinct.

Allow me to rephrase myself. No species has ever been on the brink of annihilation by their own doing. We are, and might be the only species to ever be at fault for our own demise. The fact is, we are too damn smart for our own good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossesjoe

I'm sure you'll go on a enlighten the entire human race to all our mistakes.

I never said I was all knowing, actually I know fairly little compared to a lot of people I know. But I am not ignorant, and I feel it is my duty to teach some uneducated people whatever I can, which is certainly not even close to everything. So ignorant comments such as that do not bother me.

monkeyfkker · Sep 11, 2006, 5:18 PM

I feel that there is nothing wrong with hunting as long as it's not for sport. If a hunter cleans and eats what he kills then I see nothing wrong with it. It's nothing different than breeding animals for slaughter...

lambo or holden · Sep 11, 2006, 5:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeyfkker

I feel that there is nothing wrong with hunting as long as it's not for sport. If a hunter cleans and eats what he kills then I see nothing wrong with it. It's nothing different than breeding animals for slaughter...

I'm fine with that, what I think it ***ked up is hunting so that you can throw the meat away and stuff that skin, kill a whole elephant for its tusks or cut the fin off a shark and throw it back so it has to suffer then die.

Spitfire · Sep 11, 2006, 5:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeyfkker

I feel that there is nothing wrong with hunting as long as it's not for sport. If a hunter cleans and eats what he kills then I see nothing wrong with it. It's nothing different than breeding animals for slaughter...

I see nothing wrong with what you have said, but Im thinking more the other way around. If a human were to kill an animal for food, I believe that is a worthy cause. Likewise, if an animal were to attack a human because it was hungry, people would then go out and kill about 10 of that type of animal to get even. We are basically saying that we can hunt animals for food, but they cannot hunt us for food. We cannot have it both ways. It is immoral. Again, I do not choose animals over people, I just think that we all have the same right to life. We are not supreme beings, so it is not our place to choose what can live and what cannot.

jjo · Sep 11, 2006, 5:49 PM

it's pretty simple really...People come first !
It's sad, it's cold but it's also fact...deal with it !

Heretic · Sep 11, 2006, 5:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfire

I see nothing wrong with what you have said, but Im thinking more the other way around. If a human were to kill an animal for food, I believe that is a worthy cause. Likewise, if an animal were to attack a human because it was hungry, people would then go out and kill about 10 of that type of animal to get even. We are basically saying that we can hunt animals for food, but they cannot hunt us for food. We cannot have it both ways. It is immoral. Again, I do not choose animals over people, I just think that we all have the same right to life. We are not supreme beings, so it is not our place to choose what can live and what cannot.

You may not agree with it, but our place IS to decide what lives and dies. We make that choice every day. We kill mice, rats, and other "pests" because we do not want them taking refuge in our dwellings. We kill dangerous animals (alligators, mountain lions, bears, and poisonous snakes) because we will not share our living environment with any animal that poses a threat to our welfare (There is a 23 foot alligator in the news today, hanging after it was shot). We wear furs and leather, and I am sure that the animals did not give these up willingly. I have boots made from crocodile, snake, and sea turtle, and I am sure these skins were not freely given either

Just a side note.... I have heard of fur coats being spray painted, but never a biker's leathers. Maybe these activists feel that they are safer harassing older women than bikers. It is funny how a potential butt kicking changes someone's morals

Spitfire · Sep 11, 2006, 6:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heretic

You may not agree with it, but our place IS to decide what lives and dies. We make that choice every day. We kill mice, rats, and other "pests" because we do not want them taking refuge in our dwellings. We kill dangerous animals (alligators, mountain lions, bears, and poisonous snakes) because we will not share our living environment with any animal that poses a threat to our welfare (There is a 23 foot alligator in the news today, hanging after it was shot). We wear furs and leather, and I am sure that the animals did not give these up willingly. I have boots made from crocodile, snake, and sea turtle, and I am sure these skins were not freely given either

Just a side note.... I have heard of fur coats being spray painted, but never a biker's leathers. Maybe these activists feel that they are safer harassing older women than bikers. It is funny how a potential butt kicking changes someone's morals

I feel that conservation is more effective that being an activist. The reason I feel this way is that instead of trying to change peoples' minds in the way an activist does, you simply dont give them a choice in the matter, which is what conservation is about. Furthermore, conservation targets everyone, while activists can only go after a certain group at a time. Also, activists will try and stop the problem after it has happened, while conservationists will just stop the problem all together, before it escalates.

Heretic · Sep 11, 2006, 6:24 PM

conservation will not work, if you truly feel that you can give the publc no choise. The basic principals of supply and demand, as well as human nature are the conservationist's worst enemys. You can go on e bay right now and find billiard cue sticks inlaid with elephant ivory. People pay $2,500 each for these (I have one myself). The turtle boots I have are not legal, but that makes them more appealing to me. The fact that they are not readily available means that people are willing to pay more for them. Giving the general population fewer choises just shifts the crime to a more white collar base, and these are the people who do not get prosocuted nearly as often.

I understand that this may find what I say offensive, but it was not meant that way. This is just my cynical and somewhat jaded view of animal rights, or lack thereof

Spitfire · Sep 11, 2006, 6:38 PM

I just need to ask you a question that is valid and is not meant to be an attack, I just want a straight answer. Have you no shame whatsoever? How does it make you feel, if anything, that an elephant had to give its life so you could have a nice set of billiard cue sticks? Do you think about the turtle that had to give its life so you could have a new set of boots? I find it to be sick and downright disturbing. As far as conservation goes, yes you can give the public no choice. There are conservation parks where animals are protected and poachers are prosecuted. They have no choice whatsoever, seeing as they cannot hunt on those grounds. But I think that another resort would be to teach ignorant people so they can better understand our world. Part of conserving is also teaching morals to people, and helping them to understand the cause we fight for.

monkeyfkker · Sep 11, 2006, 6:56 PM

This is how it is... Man kills whatever he wants to and will ALWAYS find a way to justify it. It's cruel to kill a fox for it's fur but it's okay to kill a cow for the leather seats that that same animal rights activist has in his Escalade that he sits on to go to the steakhouse and eat that cow...

It's life guys...

Heretic · Sep 11, 2006, 7:06 PM

My family sold part of one of our ranches to the state of California so they could make another conservation park, so I guess I am farmiliar with the concept

As for shame...I didn't kill the animals, I just had the money to buy rare products. This may seem like I am displacing the blame, but if I had not paid for them someone else would have. My point is that you cannot give the people no choice. This just promotes a flawed economic system. Laws telling people that they cannot own something do not work, they just make these items more desireable to much of the public. With desire comes the market, and the value rises.The rattle snake boots I wore this weekend are not nearly as good as a pair of regular cowboy boots, but because they are different, I had half a dozen people asking where I got them.

Education will benifit your cause, but I do not see it as a solution. As long as exotic skins are available somebody will buy them

Spitfire · Sep 11, 2006, 7:18 PM

Well, I am not all powerful and I cannot change everyones views. All I can really do is teach everything I know to whoever is willing to learn. There will never be a solution, only certain benefits. I would be more than willing to teach whoever has the desire to learn. I have my beliefs, and you have yours. To people who have your mindset, all I can do is try and keep them away. As for ignorant people, I can try and give them all the information I have, and that is all I can really do. The rest is up to them.

Sep 11, 2006, 5:18 PM	#5
monkeyfkker Whatever Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Kansas Posts: 14,482	I feel that there is nothing wrong with hunting as long as it's not for sport. If a hunter cleans and eats what he kills then I see nothing wrong with it. It's nothing different than breeding animals for slaughter... __________________ Refrain from posting once in a while. - VTEC Drams

Sep 11, 2006, 5:49 PM	#8
jjo Dodge This ! Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Toronto Posts: 2,386	it's pretty simple really...People come first ! It's sad, it's cold but it's also fact...deal with it ! __________________ /10 Challenger SRT8 Last edited by jjo : Sep 11, 2006 at 5:51 PM.

Sep 11, 2006, 6:38 PM	#12
Spitfire Legendary. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 1,137	I just need to ask you a question that is valid and is not meant to be an attack, I just want a straight answer. Have you no shame whatsoever? How does it make you feel, if anything, that an elephant had to give its life so you could have a nice set of billiard cue sticks? Do you think about the turtle that had to give its life so you could have a new set of boots? I find it to be sick and downright disturbing. As far as conservation goes, yes you can give the public no choice. There are conservation parks where animals are protected and poachers are prosecuted. They have no choice whatsoever, seeing as they cannot hunt on those grounds. But I think that another resort would be to teach ignorant people so they can better understand our world. Part of conserving is also teaching morals to people, and helping them to understand the cause we fight for. __________________ Any fool can criticize, condemn, & complain. And most do.

Sep 11, 2006, 6:56 PM	#13
monkeyfkker Whatever Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Kansas Posts: 14,482	This is how it is... Man kills whatever he wants to and will ALWAYS find a way to justify it. It's cruel to kill a fox for it's fur but it's okay to kill a cow for the leather seats that that same animal rights activist has in his Escalade that he sits on to go to the steakhouse and eat that cow... It's life guys... __________________ Refrain from posting once in a while. - VTEC Drams

Sep 11, 2006, 7:18 PM	#15
Spitfire Legendary. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 1,137	Well, I am not all powerful and I cannot change everyones views. All I can really do is teach everything I know to whoever is willing to learn. There will never be a solution, only certain benefits. I would be more than willing to teach whoever has the desire to learn. I have my beliefs, and you have yours. To people who have your mindset, all I can do is try and keep them away. As for ignorant people, I can try and give them all the information I have, and that is all I can really do. The rest is up to them. __________________ Any fool can criticize, condemn, & complain. And most do.

Sep 11, 2006, 4:54 PM	#3
Heretic Banned Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 10,233	arguably the most notable "hunter" in America is Ted Nuggent, and he brags about nut buying meat in 20 years. How is this less civilized than getting a steak at a grocery store? My family owned cattle ranches, and because of this I have seen what happens in feedlots. It is not pretty, but this is how it will be until we all start eating tofu burgers

Sep 11, 2006, 6:24 PM	#11
Heretic Banned Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 10,233	conservation will not work, if you truly feel that you can give the publc no choise. The basic principals of supply and demand, as well as human nature are the conservationist's worst enemys. You can go on e bay right now and find billiard cue sticks inlaid with elephant ivory. People pay $2,500 each for these (I have one myself). The turtle boots I have are not legal, but that makes them more appealing to me. The fact that they are not readily available means that people are willing to pay more for them. Giving the general population fewer choises just shifts the crime to a more white collar base, and these are the people who do not get prosocuted nearly as often. I understand that this may find what I say offensive, but it was not meant that way. This is just my cynical and somewhat jaded view of animal rights, or lack thereof

Sep 11, 2006, 7:06 PM	#14
Heretic Banned Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 10,233	My family sold part of one of our ranches to the state of California so they could make another conservation park, so I guess I am farmiliar with the concept As for shame...I didn't kill the animals, I just had the money to buy rare products. This may seem like I am displacing the blame, but if I had not paid for them someone else would have. My point is that you cannot give the people no choice. This just promotes a flawed economic system. Laws telling people that they cannot own something do not work, they just make these items more desireable to much of the public. With desire comes the market, and the value rises.The rattle snake boots I wore this weekend are not nearly as good as a pair of regular cowboy boots, but because they are different, I had half a dozen people asking where I got them. Education will benifit your cause, but I do not see it as a solution. As long as exotic skins are available somebody will buy them

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