I've noticed a lot of this. Whenever someone doesn't like someone else's opinion they call them stupid or retarded or some other insult. I shoot my mouth off too when someone insults me first but I don't sit here and say "hey retard, you're wrong!" Guess what, no one's wrong when they're expressing their opinion. That's what they are, Opinions! Even if someone states false information they don't deserve to be insulted.

I have seen this as well. I have tried not to involve myself in an of these petty arguments, but I think some of the posters here are just trying to start problems, and the off topic insults do little more than demonstrate how little knowledge they actually possess. I am sure if they actually knew about the subject (supposedly sports cars on this forum) the would be able to debate facts instead of making personal insults

eh, we are human

no matter where you go, you will always see this happening

so learn to deal with it

The only time I get offended is when people try to pass stuff off as fact. There's a big difference between saying,"A Supra is the fastest car in the world!", versus saying,"I just like Supras, they're cool.".

opinions are harmless and display the differentiating tastes between car enthusiasts. Mistatements of facts are pretty irritating though and do nothing but bring up a series of arguments that typically are not based on fact. Thats usually when i start getting a lit bit irritated. There's also a lot to see in peoples methods of typing. You can tell if someone is being an ass, or being sincere about a statement. If they come off as an ass, then yeah i usually say something to em. Other then that man, who CARES. Opinions are exactly why we're all not driving Toyota Avalons around....

would just like to point out that i say alot of those mainly because they are said to me, lots and often.

and such is the way of the times

yea, alot of people do do this...

At least the new mod understands... lol. Almost every thread here is an opinion, based on pure opinion, and brings out posts that are opinions... there is NO best car, NO fastest car (one can always be made faster with a little money), NO quickest car (see last reason), NO best looking car, etc... as long as everyone knows Camaros are the best, then you know the only real FACT! lol j/k. Anyway, hopefully everyone knows what I mean. If we just stuck to the point of the forum, maybe a couple off topic threads for fun, and cracked down on people who do nothing but insult and corupt our forum, there'd be a lot less meaningless threads that start nothing but arguments...

The only time I get offended is when people try to pass stuff off as fact. There's a big difference between saying,"A Supra is the fastest car in the world!", versus saying,"I just like Supras, they're cool.".


Can you ban those people now you are mod? I think they left anyway.

in a perfect world everyones opinions would be accepted...sorry to burst your bubble but this is nowhere near a perfect world and you get people who say things just to make them feel good etc
it's human nature...you normally believe your opinions best whatever others say
if you think it fine...nobdoy should feel they have 2 change their opinion for someone else. and noone should like be so opinionated it's impossible to ever change...have an open mind...ya never know it could be a good thing??

I think, like slow said, when people mistate stuff that people get upset about it, and in replying to it we tend to post harsh stuff or snotty stuff on top of it, like, "You're a dumbazz". And with the flood of new members we get daily, or common occurance topics with strong opinions on both sides it can *totally understandably* get out of hand immediately.

Oh well, it's up to each person to deal with it however they do, some do, like Mopar, and 12inch, Igaboj, and so on. Some don't, Driftster, Car Buff Idiot (And no guys, I'm not saying you're like this 100% of the time, so relax before you get pissy), and we get tug o' war matches with lots of side comments being made.

But for the most part, people on here self-regulate. I'd like to see even less of the side comments and just as much arguing. But that's just my opinion. Luckily, I can actually *do* stuff about it. =P

Haven't you used that =P enough now? It would seem it's become a post routine. lol

Also, I could of sworn Erind said something about me in here. Did you delete?

Nice thread Monkey, I too got tired of this after a while on the forum...

If you say here that you like a normal, plain car, you're done. I know it's an enthusiast forum but you can have fun with a surprisingly great number of cars in the real world ! It's not like there is Ferrari, Porsche, BMW and then nothing else !

i agree and gd to see this was noted!

i am gettin tired of seeing about 10 veyron threads made like, y they suck, y they r great, and all and im gettin a little tired of there being so many! if someone doesnt like a car well thats their view and their opinion, 99% of the time i respect their opinions and i move on.

i agree with crossle also, someone made a thread for resonably priced cars i.e. punto and ka and some people didnt take to kindly to that. its gd as u share ur views and u may have owned one as u can afford them so u could tell us what ur experience was like with that particular car and steer someone in the right direction...

Thats a good point I didnt think about! Hell, one of the BEST cars I ever drove was my mom's 1980 baby blue Ford station wagon when I was in high school. 351 Cleveland, auto tranny, NO power at all... but it always started, got decent mileage, was more comfortable that ANY car I've had since. But would anyone here give it credit? Hell no, cause it's not a Veyron or a Viper! Anyway, not to insult anyone or put anybody down, you can pretty much tell a lot of members ages by their posts (no, I'm not talking to you! lol). Yes this is a 'sports car forum' but that doesnt mean every car we talk about has to do 200 mph!

Let's elaborate on the subject. Some people get sad because they probably won't be able to afford an icon sportscar in their life. And this is the majority of us...

Now I've seen and done a lot of things in life, at least enough to tell you that a "Sportscar" is dictated by your mindset ! There are the obvious ones (Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette, Viper, etc.) and then there's "your" sportscar.

Example: in most of my 20 years of motorsport I have been competing in Autocross (slalom) even when I was racing. In a great number of these events I was competing with my normal street cars which in my case were often referred to as "secretary cars" !

Take 1988 for example : I bought a new 3 door 4 speed Toyota Tercel same as the ones used by many restaurant's delivery service ! For autocrossing I ONLY PUT A SET OF PURPOSELY BUILT YOKOHAMA TIRES ! That's it, and this was still classified as "Stock class". I easily won my class championships against equivalent cars but it's not the point here: out of 40-60 entrants overall I always finished in the top 6 fastest of the event ! There were Corvettes, MR2s, Supra Turbo, Golf GTIs, GLH Turbos, Colt Turbos, Z-28s, 5.0 Mustangs, 944 Porsches+ various modified street legal and not street legal cars. One day, on a course of a bit over 1 minute I was only 7/10th behind an expertly driven lowered and modified 911 ! With a stock average Joe Tercel !

I don't say all this to glorify myself, at my age I don't need this. But that's only one example amongst dozens of my point : that ultra-plain Tercel was "my" sportscar ! I didn't need megabucks cars to enjoy myself ! So from now on, don't depress when you look at your parking lot....

See ya !

monkey's post just brought back memories. My dad used to be competive with a rebuilt datsun 510 in the SCCA races. Those things can really corner when set up right

The 510 is one of the better SCCA cars! I would love to get ahold of one of them. They're fun as hell to drive!

that's true. I have been in that position a few time and doesn't feel good. that's why I some times don't wrote back till the next day but in a diferent thread cause I don't like when people call me stupd, dumbas* and so on and doesn't respect my opinion.

Hey monkey, getting your hands on a 510 can be easily arranged. Are you interested in stock or SCCA ready. What do you have to trade? Dad has a couple extra, and a few of the old datsun roadsters that he tried to race too.

The 510 is one of the better SCCA cars! I would love to get ahold of one of them. They're fun as hell to drive!
Chyea.
And you can make it a real track b*tch for cheap.
Just rip out the interior, toss in a cage, throw on some track wheels + tires, and start the engine mods.

Hey! You're back!

Yeah you're back too!:smt023 Pretty damn that i go to bed when you wake up, and you go to bed when i wake up. lol

Let's elaborate on the subject. Some people get sad because they probably won't be able to afford an icon sportscar in their life. And this is the majority of us...

Now I've seen and done a lot of things in life, at least enough to tell you that a "Sportscar" is dictated by your mindset ! There are the obvious ones (Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette, Viper, etc.) and then there's "your" sportscar.

Example: in most of my 20 years of motorsport I have been competing in Autocross (slalom) even when I was racing. In a great number of these events I was competing with my normal street cars which in my case were often referred to as "secretary cars" !

Take 1988 for example : I bought a new 3 door 4 speed Toyota Tercel same as the ones used by many restaurant's delivery service ! For autocrossing I ONLY PUT A SET OF PURPOSELY BUILT YOKOHAMA TIRES ! That's it, and this was still classified as "Stock class". I easily won my class championships against equivalent cars but it's not the point here: out of 40-60 entrants overall I always finished in the top 6 fastest of the event ! There were Corvettes, MR2s, Supra Turbo, Golf GTIs, GLH Turbos, Colt Turbos, Z-28s, 5.0 Mustangs, 944 Porsches+ various modified street legal and not street legal cars. One day, on a course of a bit over 1 minute I was only 7/10th behind an expertly driven lowered and modified 911 ! With a stock average Joe Tercel !

I don't say all this to glorify myself, at my age I don't need this. But that's only one example amongst dozens of my point : that ultra-plain Tercel was "my" sportscar ! I didn't need megabucks cars to enjoy myself ! So from now on, don't depress when you look at your parking lot....

See ya !

Dose anyone know if there is anything like that in or near Melbourne?

It is easy to build a 510 cheap. The subaru LSD bolts right under the back of the datsun. It is easy to lower, and the 240 5 spd goes in with just a little modification to the hole in the floor for the shifter. The engine mods are cheap too. The head off the L16 engine in the 510 bolts right onto the later L20 from a pickup. This makes a high compression 2L engine with a lot of dual carb options.

The only time I get offended is when people try to pass stuff off as fact. There's a big difference between saying,"A Supra is the fastest car in the world!", versus saying,"I just like Supras, they're cool.".

opinions are harmless and display the differentiating tastes between car enthusiasts. Mistatements of facts are pretty irritating though and do nothing but bring up a series of arguments that typically are not based on fact. Thats usually when i start getting a lit bit irritated. There's also a lot to see in peoples methods of typing. You can tell if someone is being an ass, or being sincere about a statement. If they come off as an ass, then yeah i usually say something to em. Other then that man, who CARES. Opinions are exactly why we're all not driving Toyota Avalons around....
Ed Zachary.
Opinions and facts are two different things and should be noted as such. Of course, many opinions are based on incorrect information and those are annoying!

Maybe U Could Think He Isnt Corrct But Maybe He Is Correct. That Happens A Lot. People Had Call Me Dumba** And Said I Dont Know What Im Talking About And Next Day Apologse Because They Found Out What I Said Is True.

VickSupra is car god, didnt you know, we have had a few of those, they usually get frustrated and leave, thank god

I would guess that VickSupra is still butthurt about Slow tearing him a new one on another thread

I would guess that VickSupra is still butthurt about Slow tearing him a new one on another thread
He messaged me and told me he was used to dealing with children, and how childish I was.

I find hypocritical irony in there somewhere. :D

I do not take things into a private post unless i need to warn someone about forum rules or something of that sort. If its going to be a battle of wits, or car knowledge, then please keep it out in the open ya know? I have no problem with being wrong, however HERE is something that happens a LOT on this forum and many others.

Individual comes into the forum, claims he's car God, accuses others of not bringing forth evidence when he/she posts no evidence of their own, and CLAIMS they posted evidence a while ago. Its absolutely hilarious. I love it when people dig their own graves. Why is it with many people, that you can tell have extensive experience, or are in fact mature, I have no conflict with even if we are 180 degrees off of each other when it comes to agreeing on a point? Probably the aforementioned maturity.

I dont normally like to resort to my small namecalling or implicating statements but some people just need to be boiled until they leave. Vicksupra came in like a nice guy, then blatantly showed his colors by doing many of the things I described in the above paragraph. I like how he CLAIMS superiority over me (and im sure he'd do it to others) without even knowing me. Mutual respect man,..mutual respect....

You are so right Slow. It's like me and you. I'm always right and you're always wrong! As long as you can handle the truth, we're cool! lol... j/k. It's fun watching these guys come and go though...

people like that who think they know everything, are very annoying to those of us who really do:rolleyes:

The problem with everyone is the see problems in everyone else. If thou does not judge thou will not have other members trawl through their posts and remind them that they are like their brethren and sistren, hypocrites.
You people are all offenders, as I am. Deal.

He messaged me and told me he was used to dealing with children, and how childish I was.

I find hypocritical irony in there somewhere. :D

I do not take things into a private post unless i need to warn someone about forum rules or something of that sort. If its going to be a battle of wits, or car knowledge, then please keep it out in the open ya know? I have no problem with being wrong, however HERE is something that happens a LOT on this forum and many others.

Individual comes into the forum, claims he's car God, accuses others of not bringing forth evidence when he/she posts no evidence of their own, and CLAIMS they posted evidence a while ago. Its absolutely hilarious. I love it when people dig their own graves. Why is it with many people, that you can tell have extensive experience, or are in fact mature, I have no conflict with even if we are 180 degrees off of each other when it comes to agreeing on a point? Probably the aforementioned maturity.

I dont normally like to resort to my small namecalling or implicating statements but some people just need to be boiled until they leave. Vicksupra came in like a nice guy, then blatantly showed his colors by doing many of the things I described in the above paragraph. I like how he CLAIMS superiority over me (and im sure he'd do it to others) without even knowing me. Mutual respect man,..mutual respect....

Got it all wrong again, bud.
You are the one that posted NO evidence and had to resort to namecalling.
THAT's childish.

Superiority ?

I post facts and data - you post nothing. I don't have to claim anything. I let the facts speak for themselves - it's just lost on you bud.

And tell me, how well do you know me? Ah, NOT AT ALL.
You ASSume and and it shows. Particularly since you are wrong.
I don't know much about you, and I don't make personal attacks on you - just your ideas or opinions in posts. You're probably a nice guy - most car guys are - but you really can't take being shown up.

And show me a post where I claim I am a "car god". It hasn't happened. I talk about things I know about and not about the things I don't. Unlike a number of people on this and every other forum.

Try practicing what you preach.

I think both of you should try to be more informative and try less to show how right you are.

ASSume


What is with supra fans and the ASSume expression? Mikespeed used it and know this guy.

I think that in an ideal world people should at least be able to admit when they made a misstake.

I'm living in my own little perfect world where I admit every misstake I make when I make one and must say that it's not as bad as I initially thought.

Honestly though I must say that in comparison to some other forums I visit this one is quite neat. The other ones on the other hand are more informative when it comes to technical matters.

Got it all wrong again, bud.
You are the one that posted NO evidence and had to resort to namecalling.
THAT's childish.

And setting aside time, to launch a personal attack, including namecalling, isnt childish? Try pulling the beam out of your own eye, before you worry about the splinter in someone elses.


Superiority ?

Evident and completely displayed by comment like the one below. Lets take a look.


I post facts and data - you post nothing. I don't have to claim anything. I let the facts speak for themselves - it's just lost on you bud.

Top five cars in customer satisfaction specifically dealing with reliability for vehicle year 2005, as posted by you, and claimed as factual, indicated 1 Japanese car, and 4 American.

Could you do me a favor, and try to work out the percentile number value as to cars in the top 15 slots and how they compare, specifically regarding origin of make? Maybe even make a pie chart? Good, now who holds the largest slice of the "reliability pie", according to JD Powers reliability report 2005, as posted by you. Now who is "lost" in the numbers?


And tell me, how well do you know me? Ah, NOT AT ALL.

I wasnt the one who blatantly said, and I quote "I've been there, done that and you can't walk the walk.". Do you know me? Hrrmmm. Who is assuming what now? Oh wait it goes on.

"I've read about recalls, etc, probably for a lot longer than you have."

Another ASSumption. Niiiiice.

"And I have been doing research in this and other areas long before you."

Wow,..assumptions galore. Who is ignorant now?

"I've studied this much longer than you,"

Good call on the "tell me how well you know me" comment. Please show me where I stated that i had studied something more than you. Go for it. I await your undoubtedly twisted and contorted statement.


You ASSume and and it shows. Particularly since you are wrong.

Calm yourself and do the pie chart thing I asked. You assume I cant add or something of that nature, when in fact I have, and via your OWn charts, you are 180 degrees out from what the factual truth is. At least based on your JD Powers posting.


I don't know much about you, and I don't make personal attacks on you - just your ideas or opinions in posts. You're probably a nice guy - most car guys are - but you really can't take being shown up.

Nah being shown up I give a handshake, a smile, say "Good run" and come back harder next year. The problem here is you are finding evidence that you think supports your point of view, then being shown via your own evidence, that you are wrong. So you shuffle the numbers. Once again, in case you missed it the first time, show me a pie chart including the top 15 rated most reliable vehicles 2005 by JD Powers. Then tell me what percentile the American cars hold of that pie. I await your answer.


And show me a post where I claim I am a "car god". It hasn't happened. I talk about things I know about and not about the things I don't. Unlike a number of people on this and every other forum.

Car God is based on the statements above, where you very much assume you are the most knowledgable person here. In fact you came IN HERE with that attitude. Talking about how the "Titan Supra was in the 8's and people must not know what they're talking about" without figuring out who actually DID know what they were talking about. THAT is ignorance. Whether you agree or not, I dont particularly care. An individuals ignorance will be revealed in the end, and I certainly feel your "End" was a long time ago.


Try practicing what you preach.

I no longer "practice". I'm a Pro. I put it into motion. :D

there is no way in hell that american cars are ranked in anything remotly close to reliable

there is no way in hell that american cars are ranked in anything remotly close to reliable
There's an American company that makes vehicles that last over a million miles, can be idled for weeks without being shut off, and are more reliable than anything made anywhere else! So there... lol

who?? let me see

Paccar .lol

and here I was thinking that we had run Vicksupra off.
I have some advise for you Vick, enjoy your car, continue with your arrogant belief that it is thew best car ever made, and continue to beligerantly hold to your false omnipotence, just do it somewhere else.
This forum does contain some young kids who are just learning, and to them you may seem knowledgable. There are others of us on here though, that are not awed by your very presence. You cannot make a statement, and by the very force of your being, have it be true. You will have to quote real, verifyable facts in order for your opinion to be taken as fact, and just shuffeling statistics will not cut it.

I could probably find some obscure statistic that said a rambler inline 6 has more power per cube than a 460 ford. That does not mean it is a better engine. This may be the worst example of number shuffeling ever, but it is exactly what you are doing, and your argument sound just as ludicrous

I think running people off that are an actual enthusiast is exactly the wrong idea. Sure he's said stupid stuff but it's really not like we gave him any lee way at all. If someone says something stupid, correct then but lets not "run them off the board", thats not the point of the exercise. A lot of what is going on is just egos and last time that happened a mod went off at everyone, rollin included then up and left (blucam). Instead lets not take mistakes as declarations of war and try not to condemn people for being misguided and arrogant, it is a car board isn't it? If you have something to correct someone on, especially a new member, don't make it a personal attack. If you've established yourself on the board be here to help others or you may as well lock yourself in a dark room.

I think running people off that are an actual enthusiast is exactly the wrong idea. Sure he's said stupid stuff but it's really not like we gave him any lee way at all. If someone says something stupid, correct then but lets not "run them off the board", thats not the point of the exercise. A lot of what is going on is just egos and last time that happened a mod went off at everyone, rollin included then up and left (blucam). Instead lets not take mistakes as declarations of war and try not to condemn people for being misguided and arrogant, it is a car board isn't it? If you have something to correct someone on, especially a new member, don't make it a personal attack. If you've established yourself on the board be here to help others or you may as well lock yourself in a dark room.

Not like I dont respect your point of view, and both of us being mods we may have to find a common approach and make it the rule. However, I personally feel that there is an excessive influx of people, who after they join, and sometimes even in their first post, make statements about how intelligent or experienced they are, and direct it in such a manner as to attempt to demean another members post. These indivduals from day one, typically carry out the same demeanor, and attempt to "Push their weight around" the forum, like they are the end all be all. From Fanboys, to "Older Gentlemen", to "Professional Drifters", we have had a lot of people claim via their own statements that they were the end all be all. Even IF that were true, who wants to deal with their attitude? Let me lay out a couple things to think about.

First off VickSupra was VERY respectable when he first got here, and my first post in reply to him was that we would welcome him, because he initially came in and posted respectably. He started off much the same way Heretic did. Quiet, Respectable, and non-offensive. A fast train to respect, and open eyes around here when it comes to reading his posts. However, I have yet, at any point, regarding the majority of members, seen the type of beligerant, and ignorant comments of all knowing omnipotence such as VickSupra, MikeSpeed, and a couple of other guys have posted via ignorant little comments. "Punks" dont usually get very far on their first day of work if they badger the other employees, or tell the other employees that they simply havent studied something as long as this new employee has. That is a statement of ignorance. Plain and simple. While I understand this is a forum, and not the workplace, the example still stands.

I read 12inch's post, and did feel a little guilty. I let my mouth overload my tail, and for that I appologise. I started posting on this forum with the intention of sharing some of my experiences, and knowledge. I have a lot to contribute, but my own arogance should not be part of that. I make no excuses for my demeanor, and will try to practice tolerance.

i just ignore the comments, that or say something bak

and here I was thinking that we had run Vicksupra off.
I have some advise for you Vick, enjoy your car, continue with your arrogant belief that it is thew best car ever made, and continue to beligerantly hold to your false omnipotence, just do it somewhere else.

And I have some advice for you:
Show me one post where I stated that the Supra is the best car ever made. I'll save you the trouble. It has not happened.

This forum does contain some young kids who are just learning, and to them you may seem knowledgable. There are others of us on here though, that are not awed by your very presence. You cannot make a statement, and by the very force of your being, have it be true. You will have to quote real, verifyable facts in order for your opinion to be taken as fact, and just shuffeling statistics will not cut it.

I back up my statements with facts and references. You need to look around a bit and see who actually states OPINIONS without backup. Further, I only make factual statements in areas I am familiar with. Not like some, who like to ramble on about anything, whether they know anything about it or not.

I could probably find some obscure statistic that said a rambler inline 6 has more power per cube than a 460 ford. That does not mean it is a better engine. This may be the worst example of number shuffeling ever, but it is exactly what you are doing, and your argument sound just as ludicrous

If you don't understand or agree with the facts I post, present your own verifiable backup.

.......

First off VickSupra was VERY respectable when he first got here, and my first post in reply to him was that we would welcome him, because he initially came in and posted respectably. He started off much the same way Heretic did. Quiet, Respectable, and non-offensive. A fast train to respect, and open eyes around here when it comes to reading his posts. However, I have yet, at any point, regarding the majority of members, seen the type of beligerant, and ignorant comments of all knowing omnipotence such as VickSupra, MikeSpeed, and a couple of other guys have posted via ignorant little comments. "Punks" dont usually get very far on their first day of work if they badger the other employees, or tell the other employees that they simply havent studied something as long as this new employee has. That is a statement of ignorance. Plain and simple. While I understand this is a forum, and not the workplace, the example still stands.

Interesting, but wrong. You continue to rely on your personal experience with vehicles as your only backup for many of your statements. Since you complain roundly about imports, tell us EXACTLY how many you have owned and driven extensively. Since I'm about 50-50 on owning and driving imports and domestics (US cars), I can relate directly to both. Can you?
As I noted, I post facts about stuff I know. I am no "new employee" and you continue to make ASSumptions without basis. I hire and fire myself, and often hire folks that know more than I about a particular area. That's the point. And when I run into someone that demonstrably knows more about something than I do, I listen. If they demonstrate they do not know more in that area, then I don't.
Simple.

Interesting, but wrong. You continue to rely on your personal experience with vehicles as your only backup for many of your statements.

Oh I'm sorry. Are my personal experiences, as a mechanic, multi-vehicle owner, commuter (90 miles a day round trip, no bull), and amateur racer not good enough for your consumer reports? Oh ok so we're supposed to believe whats in JD Powers as long as real life doesnt reach across and slap the wrinkles off your face? Gee heaven forbid guys like ME write into consumer reports!! Its so SO simple. What is printed, in magazines, is not always true, nor is it regularly very accurate. If you cling so tightly to "That book says so!", then you are grade A moron. But wait, there's more!


Since you complain roundly about imports, tell us EXACTLY how many you have owned and driven extensively.

Where do I complain about Imports? Here's the challenge to you old fart. Find where I said "Imports are garbage!"? Just unlike your pathetic existance and its reliance on JD Powers and other useless crap, I know for a fact, that 99% of the cars manufactured will last just as long as the next one, with proper maintenance, and treatment. Find where I said more. Oh gee let me pull a VickSupra trick,....Dont bother because there isnt any. I LIKE imports guy, just unlike you I dont sit at my breakfast table pondering some review some jackass wrote over a cup of decaffeinated coffee. I get out and WORK on them, and DRIVE them, and RACE them. You by FAR, are the oldest ricer I have EVER corresponded with.

Oh and SURE!

1983 280ZX (Not a 2+2)
170 some odd thousand miles. Broke the fan blades off while going down the highway. Car was just old. A lot of the electrical system was on its way out too. No problem. It was old.


1992 Prelude S
Distributor Bearing went out going down the highway. The cam drives the distributor on a F22A1. It sheared the end of the cam off when the distributor bearing siezed. Vehicle was in EXCELLENT repair before this happened. New, upgraded distributor and factory replacement cam
sent me on my way. Stuff happens.


1999 Mazda Protege DX(Still have it)
Been Hit 3 times in the past 2 months (Car I bought and that is in my name for one of my sisters). Coil packs mount to valve cover. Excess heat causes them to wear out prematurely by design. Oh but I'm sure you'll find that in JD Powers. Been through 3 sets of coils. O2 Sensor went out and when the idiot at the Mazda Dealer replaced it he crossed something in the electrical system that for an hour for some reason would shut the car down. Not the cars fault, stuff happens. However the coil pack thing is stupid, and poor by design.

1994 Suzuki Sidekick
This thing, while being rated near the bottom in the JDP VDS, was unbreakable. It had the 16 valve motor, and just kept going and going and going.

1990 Toyota Supra Turbo ("Serious Relationship" Girlfriends car)
This thing spent more time in the shop then any car I have ever known. It spun a main in the original motor at 70,000 some odd miles. Weeks after having a new 7M-GTE dropped in at Folsom Lake Toyota, little electrical things started to go out too. Sold that bucket and got her a V6 stang. Oh yeah, and it was VERY well maintained. But you know what? I even STILL look at it this way. WE just happened to get a bad one. No worries. Doesnt mean all Toyotas are garbage, although this one certainly didnt stand the test of time.

Those are just a few of the Japanese makes I have owned. Let me know if your extremely slow mind needs time to evaluate what I'm saying. Oh and one more thing.

Just cause you saw it in a magazine, doesnt mean its true.


Since I'm about 50-50 on owning and driving imports and domestics (US cars), I can relate directly to both. Can you?

Absolutely. We have had both in the family, and I have had both. The Protege is giving me more issues right now (None of its own accord though, one breakin and two collisions that my sister got into) than the Tbird has at all. Oh and the Tbird is the "Unreliable" TurboCoupe, with a true 204,000 on the odometer. Thats the car I take to work 45 miles one way EVERY business day.


Oh and having lived in several places overseas, I can tell you I have sampled many cars from Europe too. I mean European only models.

Opel Ascona, Renault Megane, a couple of Seats and Skodas. I'm sure now you're gonna tell me you're more "Knowledgable" though because you read Eurotrash magazines.


As I noted, I post facts about stuff I know. I am no "new employee" and you continue to make ASSumptions without basis.

I dont HAVE to bring "New Evidence" to light if your own evidence contradicts your statements. Statistically. It does. It destroys your whole argument. Once again though you dont want to concentrate on how many holes were shot through YOUR own assesments. Thats because you're ignorant. You are also telling me that I ASSume, yet you clearly ASSume that you havent misinterpreted reports, or misjudged data, or in fact that you are completely and totally wrong for saying "Because Auto-Rag Weekly Said so!". Not only are you ignorant, you are blind to the fact that reports are not "Infallable" and are often VERY wrong. So get over yourself. More importantly, get over your "I read JD Powers" Horsecrap that in reality makes you look like a bumbling idiot. Like I said, Oldest ricer I ever met.

Oh, and you ARE new here. Period.



I hire and fire myself, and often hire folks that know more than I about a particular area. That's the point. And when I run into someone that demonstrably knows more about something than I do, I listen. If they demonstrate they do not know more in that area, then I don't.
Simple.

So you ASSume that because you dont agree with someone or have experience that "Tells you otherwise", that you are right PERIOD, when in fact, you may be wrong? Thats pretty much the definition of ignorance. If you had any wisdom. Any clue regarding mutual understanding at ALL, you'd know that the moment someone said "Did you know the sky is actually green?", when you deny them is the exact same moment you walk out the door and the sky resembles St Patricks Day. Dont be such an ignorant old fart. Or do old dogs not know how to learn new tricks?


It IS simple. You still, in the position of hiring and firing people, think your opinion is the only one that matters.

You are probably a horrendous, crappy boss.

It IS simple. You still, in the position of hiring and firing people, think your opinion is the only one that matters.

You are probably a horrendous, crappy boss.
You are the one claiming your opinions are the only way.
You only state opinion based on personal experience, which, as anecdotal evidence, is totally useless.
I am the one presenting verified facts and statistics. Of course, you said you don't believe in statistics, so you are severely handicapped to prove anything.
My facts are not contradictory - you just don't understand them.
As usual, you can't even understand or at least restate what I said. I didn't say you said "Imports are garbage!". I said you roundly criticized them. I don't need to look too far for that - or don't you remember?
Nothing you said means anything.
You ASSume and you are wrong.
You don't even understand my point about who to listen to. But then, that is no surprise.
BTW - I really enjoy it when you have to resort to 3rd grade name-calling. That's the refuge of those with nothing to back them up.
I see your real problem is that you aren't used to someone calling your bluff when you are wrong.
As I have stated several times, I don't offer more than an opinion unless I know the facts. When I know the facts, I'll correct any misstatements I see.

It's interesting that you feel that number of posts or length of time on a forum is some useful measuring stick but discount years of experience. Quite the opposite is true, and I think you know it.

But keep ranting - it's quite appropriate.

You are the one claiming your opinions are the only way.

What that if you blindly believe everything you read you're useless? Yep. I dont see how thats so far fetched. But ok whatever floats your boat there guy.


You only state opinion based on personal experience, which, as anecdotal evidence, is totally useless.

I will let those mechanics know that their experience counts for nothing. Maybe you should share this with them as they repair your car? Oh and if my experience is "Anecdotal Evidence", then who gives a flying crap about how many vehicles YOU have owned or worked on? Although being a sound basis, by your pathetic argument alone you are saying that personal experience accounts for nothing, yet believe in reports you claim are filled out by people who share their "Personal Experiences". What a flaming hypocrite.


I am the one presenting verified facts and statistics. Of course, you said you don't believe in statistics, so you are severely handicapped to prove anything.

Via your own statistics I turned your whole argument upside down. There are near as many or MORE Japanese makes at the BOTTOM of your statistical charts or more, whereas American vehicles were in the top or middle. Your argument is porous. All your blind, ignorant self sees, is one or two Japanese cars at the top of the lists you showed. Nevermind the fact that there was 3-4 American makes right below them in 3-6 slots or around there. Yet ALL Japanese cars are reliable. Take your blanket statements elsewhere.


My facts are not contradictory - you just don't understand them.
As usual, you can't even understand or at least restate what I said. I didn't say you said "Imports are garbage!". I said you roundly criticized them. I don't need to look too far for that - or don't you remember?
Nothing you said means anything.
You ASSume and you are wrong.


Havent broken down what I proved in the other thread have you? No, cause when you break down the FACTS (by your JD Powers VDS anyways) American cars are right up top too. You're just too ignorant to see it.


You don't even understand my point about who to listen to. But then, that is no surprise.


Once again, go back and read my posts. You are a blind ignorant old fart. End of story. You simply cant understand your own statistics. I find that humorous.


BTW - I really enjoy it when you have to resort to 3rd grade name-calling. That's the refuge of those with nothing to back them up.

No thats all thats left after you are smacked in the face with your own "Facts". Its just as easily said that you resort to pointing that out in an attempt to back up your claims, which you STILL have yet to do.


I see your real problem is that you aren't used to someone calling your bluff when you are wrong.

Ignorance man. I cant believe you are so ignorant. I have p[osted your "Facts" over and over again. I even told you to do a pie chart with the averages of your VDS's. Awww you wouldnt do it would you? Why? Oh yeah, cause it proves how wrong you are. You completely dodge my points and roll around them saying "My sources are correct!". Point is, even if they ARE, they still prove YOU wrong.


As I have stated several times, I don't offer more than an opinion unless I know the facts. When I know the facts, I'll correct any misstatements I see.

Its easy to claim that. Go back to the statistics. I have already proven you have fallen out of your rocker, and that your OWN "facts" prove how wrong you are. Its ironclad and you cant back out of it. Which is why you dodge around everything I ask you to do. You're probably a magazine exec or something trying to push your ******ed opinion on everyone else.

Hrrmm you're saying,"BUY JAPANESE IF YOU WANT RELIABILITY!!"

I'm saying,"Buy what you want, and try it for yourself. They will for the most part ALL last a long time.".

So my choice is offering the freedom of diversity. Yours is simply narrow minded ignorant focus.


It's interesting that you feel that number of posts or length of time on a forum is some useful measuring stick but discount years of experience. Quite the opposite is true, and I think you know it.

Length of time? Only when in conjunction with the help I have gladly brought to many people of this forum, and I feel my broad views, as opposed to your pathetic narrowminded garbage, helps move the forum along. See you came here saying,"Oh I know this!". Your whole problem is you're ignorant and very much think you know which side is up. For you old man I have some words of wisdom.

#1. Just grow up.

#2. You are NOT the end all be all, and while I have been known to say "Shoot I dont know but I'll see if I can help ya!", your whole pitiful position is,"I KNOW THIS AND THAT!".

#3. Could there quite possibly be someone out there more skilled than you? I mean. Isnt that possible? Using your OWN NUMBERS I have proven your precious magazine trash is a farce. Like I said before, you are the definition of the armchair racer. You came on this forum with the attitude that you were gonna "Dispense facts". Ever think maybe your "facts" are wrong? Nah couldnt be huh? You're infallable. Actually, I have a better word to describe your actions, and behavior. Idiocy, and conceit.

Like I have stated before you better check and see who's who, and whats what, before you open your trap again old man. I have HELPED far more people on this forum with pretty much any issue you can think of, far more than you have. So in short. Know your role, earn respect, and have an open mind. If you continue to show your ignorance, I will petition to remove you. That simple.

Oh and I work for a medium sized engine builder that is known for turning out high quality engines and work on Fbodys and Mustangs (I work on the mustang side of the house). I also run NMRA. I have posted videos, pictures, and articles even disclosing what shop I worked for in which a major brand specific magazine called our work some of the most professional they have ever seen. So yeah I guess its not the quality of the experience or its content, but how many years you've been alive. Get over yourself. I think we've all met cantankerous old men who think they know things they really dont. Like those cantankerous old farts I think I will give you the *nod and smile* treatment. Since conversational skills and plain jane common sense are things you dont possess.


But keep ranting - it's quite appropriate.

It is indeed. One of the many things indivduals learn as they themselves get older, is that sometimes with age, comes ignorance. You are a working example of that theory.

It is indeed. One of the many things indivduals learn as they themselves get older, is that sometimes with age, comes ignorance. You are a working example of that theory.
Let's make it simple for you. And take one point at a time.

you said :

Via your own statistics I turned your whole argument upside down. There are near as many or MORE Japanese makes at the BOTTOM of your statistical charts or more, whereas American vehicles were in the top or middle. Your argument is porous. All your blind, ignorant self sees, is one or two Japanese cars at the top of the lists you showed. Nevermind the fact that there was 3-4 American makes right below them in 3-6 slots or around there. Yet ALL Japanese cars are reliable. Take your blanket statements elsewhere.

I posted the JD Powers charts for 3 different years (2000, 2003, and 2005) to show a TREND. A trend that I had noted in an earlier post. That TREND was that US cars are getting better in the reliability area. Go back and look at the three charts. For example, the 2000 chart
http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2074a.gif
Read it carefully and note that the bottom line on the chart is the average. And see which cars are above and which ones are in the list below.
Also note that these charts only cover three years, so it's NOT a measure of long-term reliability, but I'm hopeful that the trend is. That's why I posted the 2003 and 2005 charts. To show the trend.

Got it?
Because you didn't get it before.

Once you figure this one out, we can rehash your argument about NHTSA recall data being sooooo important, until you saw the actual numbers I posted. That's for the next lesson.

Let's make it simple for you. And take one point at a time.

you said :

Via your own statistics I turned your whole argument upside down. There are near as many or MORE Japanese makes at the BOTTOM of your statistical charts or more, whereas American vehicles were in the top or middle. Your argument is porous. All your blind, ignorant self sees, is one or two Japanese cars at the top of the lists you showed. Nevermind the fact that there was 3-4 American makes right below them in 3-6 slots or around there. Yet ALL Japanese cars are reliable. Take your blanket statements elsewhere.

I posted the JD Powers charts for 3 different years (2000, 2003, and 2005) to show a TREND. A trend that I had noted in an earlier post. That TREND was that US cars are getting better in the reliability area. Go back and look at the three charts. For example, the 2000 chart
http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/images/2074a.gif
Read it carefully and note that the bottom line on the chart is the average. And see which cars are above and which ones are in the list below.
Also note that these charts only cover three years, so it's NOT a measure of long-term reliability, but I'm hopeful that the trend is. That's why I posted the 2003 and 2005 charts. To show the trend.

Got it?
Because you didn't get it before.

Once you figure this one out, we can rehash your argument about NHTSA recall data being sooooo important, until you saw the actual numbers I posted. That's for the next lesson.

Post the other two old man.

Then lets talk. I got something blatant to point out to you.

Wrong thread morons.

Where do you actually find these charts? I wouldnt mind having a look for myself at some of the other charts, are they strictly american surveys?

VickSupra has displayed his true colors on this thread.

I made a heated comment about him, and later regretted it. I posted again stating that I felt I had done wrong. I did this of my own accord, with no other reason than to make amends. Anyone who reads this will see that I was being sincere.

Vick totally ignored this, went back to the post that I was apologising for, and rewnwed his attack. This was simply a cheap shot. A gracious/mature man would have dealt with this in an entirely different fashion. I guess that this concept is beyond his ability to grasp

Vick, if you read this, you should realize that Slow's comment about your integrity as an employer is most likely true. If you are as petty, in your work environment, as you are here, you have no buisness being in charge of professionals. You may not like me, or what I say, but you know that this was not the best way for you to handle the situation

VickSupra has displayed his true colors on this thread.

I made a heated comment about him, and later regretted it. I posted again stating that I felt I had done wrong. I did this of my own accord, with no other reason than to make amends. Anyone who reads this will see that I was being sincere.

Vick totally ignored this, went back to the post that I was apologising for, and rewnwed his attack. This was simply a cheap shot. A gracious/mature man would have dealt with this in an entirely different fashion. I guess that this concept is beyond his ability to grasp

Vick, if you read this, you should realize that Slow's comment about your integrity as an employer is most likely true. If you are as petty, in your work environment, as you are here, you have no buisness being in charge of professionals. You may not like me, or what I say, but you know that this was not the best way for you to handle the situation

Simply by the body of of his comments man, I can tell he is a armchair magazine reader who thinks this weekly issue of road and smut is the word of God. Its ridiculous.

Between you and me. I like Fords, you like Chevys. I feel the 302's crank is positioned fine as a builder, you feel otherwise.

Why is it that individuals like Monkey, Iroc (Who kind of had to be molded into a respectable individual, but certainly is now), etc., can agree to disagree? Why cant VickSupra?

I'll tell you.

By the VERY BODY of his posts it is plain as day to see that he feels every word he spews is fact, and uses his favorite rag of the week to "back up" up his claims as if magazines are infallable. I find this humorous, and a direct indication of the senile, cantankerous mindframe. VickSupra you at the very beginning seemed respectable. Then you tried shoving your word down peoples throats as if it came from Gods mouth. You are certainly not God, and have vividly displayed your true senile, cantankerous personality. It is limelight time. Actions speak louder than words VickSupra. In your case much louder. You have disrespected the last forum member. Go push your old senile ways and thought patterns on someone who feels like they need to put up with your crap. I don't, and neither does anyone else on this forum. I got news for you old man. You by FAR are not the most experienced individual on this forum. So pipe down. Better yet, I have asked to have you removed. Realize its not the words you use, but your poor, and offensive attitude. Good day, and have a happy ban!

Oh and Heretic sorry for not calling yet man. I am installing networks all over Amador County. Kind of the opposite direction. I will get in touch though. Thanks!

VickSupra has displayed his true colors on this thread.

I made a heated comment about him, and later regretted it. I posted again stating that I felt I had done wrong. I did this of my own accord, with no other reason than to make amends. Anyone who reads this will see that I was being sincere.

Vick totally ignored this, went back to the post that I was apologising for, and rewnwed his attack. This was simply a cheap shot. A gracious/mature man would have dealt with this in an entirely different fashion. I guess that this concept is beyond his ability to grasp

It was not obvious that your subsequent post was directed at me. My request was to post backup for anything that disagreed with something that I had posted. I'm sorry if you felt that was an "attack". I didn't mean it that way, but your subsequent post makes me wonder.

Vick, if you read this, you should realize that Slow's comment about your integrity as an employer is most likely true. If you are as petty, in your work environment, as you are here, you have no buisness being in charge of professionals. You may not like me, or what I say, but you know that this was not the best way for you to handle the situation

Frankly it is ridiculous for anyone to assume they know anything about anyone from posts in a car forum. If you've noticed, I am not into "assuming facts not in evidence", which includes name-calling and negative inferences. I can't say I "like" or "dislike" anyone on this forum, because we have not met. I don't like some attitudes and styles and opinions, but that really isn't that important.
I won't bother quoting slow's comments. Frankly, I find them rather worse than the pot calling the kettle black. Thinking you can determine anything about me, beyond facts, is sophomoric. If you can't stand the heat, is your approach to try and shove someone else out of the kitchen?
Who cares. It's your black eye, not mine.

Where do you actually find these charts? I wouldnt mind having a look for myself at some of the other charts, are they strictly american surveys?
The charts I posted are all at the JD Powers web site. They aren't too hard to find. Their web site says :
Since 1968, J.D. Power and Associates has been conducting quality and customer satisfaction research based on survey responses from millions of consumers worldwide. We represent the voice of the customer by translating survey responses from consumers and businesses into studies and reports that companies worldwide use to improve their business. In fact, J.D. Power and Associates has developed and maintains one of the largest, most comprehensive historical customer satisfaction databases in existence, which includes feedback on the shopping, buying, and ownership experiences for a variety of products and services.

So I guess it's more than just US.

I won't bother quoting slow's comments. Frankly, I find them rather worse than the pot calling the kettle black. Thinking you can determine anything about me, beyond facts, is sophomoric. If you can't stand the heat, is your approach to try and shove someone else out of the kitchen?
Who cares. It's your black eye, not mine.


The charts I posted are all at the JD Powers web site. They aren't too hard to find. Their web site says :
Since 1968, J.D. Power and Associates has been conducting quality and customer satisfaction research based on survey responses from millions of consumers worldwide. We represent the voice of the customer by translating survey responses from consumers and businesses into studies and reports that companies worldwide use to improve their business. In fact, J.D. Power and Associates has developed and maintains one of the largest, most comprehensive historical customer satisfaction databases in existence, which includes feedback on the shopping, buying, and ownership experiences for a variety of products and services.

So I guess it's more than just US.

Black eye eh? I didnt "assume" anything about you at all. I simply pointed out your attitude was that you are the greatest air breathing being on the planet and that you "only state facts". Try not to be so pompous. You aren't the end all be all, and not everything you have said is "factual". You literally cling so wretchedly tight to your magazines you accept nothing else. Your attitude sucks, which is why the topic of removing you has been addressed, and is currently under review.

Your response to Heretic initially was pompous. No two ways about it. Of all the people on the forum he'd probably be the most likely to cut you slack as well (From my observations), yet you ruined that with out of line retaliatory remarks.

I have thoroughly broken down your reviews, and even asked on several occasions that you post the VDS data for perhaps 10 years or so. You failed to do so, but posted the ONE I have seen thus far, that has Japanese cars pretty much owning the top. Furthermore, you claim that personal opinion has no bearing on anything, then post VDS charts which are the opinionated responses of which you claim hold merit. You also say people fill those things out all the time. I then asked the forum to please respond if they had ever filled out a JD Powers vehicle dependability survey. None replied, except for you. I also stated that a very large portion of the survey is filled out by elderly people with nothing better to do. You said that wasn't the case, yet you're admittedly old, and fill out the surveys. Interesting.

I personally am very drawn to your statement of how you, yourself determine who is the expert or not. Do you ever learn anything? Here's why I ask. Your statement about hiring and firing people based on what you percieve as their competence in comparison to you, actually very much accentuates the point that you are utterly senseless, and potentially a cruel employer. I dont know what you do, and to be honest I dont particularly care. Although sometimes people are kind of blatantly stupid, your approach totally defines PRECISELY what I have been saying about you this whole time. You think you have the end say, at all times. You feel you cant be wrong. When challenged instead of citing personal experiences you resort to tabloid based idiocy. I read car mags too. However, when I go to the track and see a bone stock LS1 car run 13.2, and the mags couldnt get better than 13.6-7, then you realize how incorrect many car mags can be. You are not the basis for all judgement VickSupra, and that is the attitude you have had that is most likely going to end up getting you banned. I guarantee 100% that you are NOT the most qualified person on this forum, and even if you somehow ended up being Mario Andretti, I feel by your actions alone, you have more than proven you are a cantankerous, rather senile, and very warped individual. Whereas you are new to the forum, I have something on my side you say should account for nothing.
Time for one, and the ability to do more than quote something I read off a googled site, or some car crap weekly magazine. If you dont see the error of your ways I dont know what to tell you. Other then "See ya old man!".

Good day.

Those charts dont mean shiit. Those are just relayed from dealers that participate in the J.D. Powers surveys. That leaves a lot of dealers that don't. That and the fact that a lot of people dont take their cars (including new ones) back to the dealer... the warranty doesnt exclude outside mechanics from doing warranty repairs and maintenance.

.. I didnt "assume" anything about you at all. I simply pointed out your attitude was that you are the greatest air breathing being on the planet and that you "only state facts". .....

You assume a lot, and anyone that actually knew me would laugh you off the planet. But I don't care what you think.

I have thoroughly broken down your reviews, and even asked on several occasions that you post the VDS data for perhaps 10 years or so. You failed to do so, but posted the ONE I have seen thus far, that has Japanese cars pretty much owning the top. .......if they had ever filled out a JD Powers vehicle dependability survey. None replied, except for you. I also stated that a very large portion of the survey is filled out by elderly people with nothing better to do. You said that wasn't the case, yet you're admittedly old, and fill out the surveys. Interesting.

Actually I posted JD Powers VDS for three different years, as I noted earlier. As I also noted several times, it was to note a trend. Since I don't consider three years (the JD Powers survey period) long enough to be a measure of long-term reliability, I don't take them as that. However, as I noted, if they show a trend for three-year results, I am hoping that correlates to an trend in long-term reliability. And if you want to post more charts, feel free to do so.

.... Your statement about hiring and firing people based on what you percieve as their competence in comparison to you, actually very much accentuates the point that you are utterly senseless, and potentially a cruel employer. I dont know what you do, and to be honest I dont particularly care. Although sometimes people are kind of blatantly stupid, your approach totally defines PRECISELY what I have been saying about you this whole time. You think you have the end say, at all times. You feel you cant be wrong. When challenged instead of citing personal experiences you resort to tabloid based idiocy. .....

More baseless assumptions. I never said I know everything. Until you understand that responses from 100,000 people is more useful and accurate than "personal experiences", your arguments are likewise useless.

. I guarantee 100% that you are NOT the most qualified person on this forum, and even if you somehow ended up being Mario Andretti, I feel by your actions alone, you have more than proven you are a cantankerous, rather senile, and very warped individual. Whereas you are new to the forum, I have something on my side you say should account for nothing.
Time for one, and the ability to do more than quote something I read off a googled site, or some car crap weekly magazine. If you dont see the error of your ways I dont know what to tell you. Other then "See ya old man!".

Again, I never said I am the most qualified person on the forum. However, on this forum and/or in my work, when I know the facts (FACTS, NOT OPINIONS) and someone else does not, I don't mind pointing that out. Facts are stubborn things - you can't change them by name calling and they don't change because you have some "opinion". If you can find any actual data to back up your opinions, then please, by all means, post it up.

Good day.
BTW - did you want to discuss the NHTSA recall data again? It surely didn't back up your opinion.

How about Slow then Vick finalise their arguments then we close this thread?
Ok?
Good.

You assume a lot, and anyone that actually knew me would laugh you off the planet. But I don't care what you think.

I'm not the only one. Maybe you need to have a deep meaningful talk with your "Friends". Your attitude HERE certainly conveys otherwise.

Actually I posted JD Powers VDS for three different years, as I noted earlier. As I also noted several times, it was to note a trend. Since I don't consider three years (the JD Powers survey period) long enough to be a measure of long-term reliability, I don't take them as that. However, as I noted, if they show a trend for three-year results, I am hoping that correlates to an trend in long-term reliability. And if you want to post more charts, feel free to do so.

I had already pointed out that if you took the top ten out of those two other charts, you had more american cars at the top. But ok, you want to talk long term? So post the charts. We'll talk long term.


More baseless assumptions. I never said I know everything. Until you understand that responses from 100,000 people is more useful and accurate than "personal experiences", your arguments are likewise useless.

As I have already stated, if you blindly believe in these "reports" and dont rely on YOUR personal experience, then you are a gullible consumer. I have had the same amount of "issues" with numerous makes and models. In fact, truth be told I have had less problems with domestics. I also dont see how you can even remotely say that with proper maintenance pretty much any vehicle will last a LONG time. Reports, ESPECIALLY those in nature like the JD Powers reports, are more often than not bloated attempts to become reliant on their service, and post information that is not entirely accurate. If you dont understand that I really dont know what to say. I have yet to hear from ANYONE except for you, who has filled out a JD Powers Auto survey. So basing your opinion on a review at this point seems kind of a moot point.


Again, I never said I am the most qualified person on the forum. However, on this forum and/or in my work, when I know the facts (FACTS, NOT OPINIONS) and someone else does not, I don't mind pointing that out. Facts are stubborn things - you can't change them by name calling and they don't change because you have some "opinion". If you can find any actual data to back up your opinions, then please, by all means, post it up.

If you feel that you know facts in an ironclad manner, be prepared to be disappointed a lot in life. Of course at your age I shouldnt have to tell you this, but apparently I do. I used to be a major advocate for imports. However, after you own quite a few domestics you realize they are easilly just as reliable as the next car. Just as you say they dont change because I have some "opinion" doesnt change the fact that nobody here has admitted to filling out a JD Powers survey except for you, which is exactly what I stated in the beginning. What it all comes down to is what you have posted, is not infallable, and in fact probably not "Factual". Of course that is the face of ugliness you cant bear to see.

BTW - did you want to discuss the NHTSA recall data again? It surely didn't back up your opinion.

It does especially when you consider that there are far more American makes sold yearly in this country, and that there are far more different models, and respective American makes than there are Japanese. It is often said that variety is the spice of life. So why would American manufacturers limit themselves to a total model per make run of like 4-5 cars? That would be a conversation certainly worth having. I can all but guarantee that there are more models of Chevy, than there are models of Honda, put out every year. Think about that. That would highly impact "Recall Data". I'm sure you'll say thats not the case though.




From here on out its gonna calm down. If you can change your attitude to that which you possesed when you first came here, then you are welcome to stay. Otherwise, well I dont know what to tell ya.

How about Slow then Vick finalise their arguments then we close this thread?
Ok?
Good.
Okey-dokey with me. This is boring as hell.

I see slow has already posted, so I'll finish up.

The question was basically whether US cars or Japanese cars are more reliable. Slow said US, I said Japanese.

Slow bases his opinion on his personal experiences with both US and imports and has stated elsewhere that he doesn't believe in statistics, or something to that effect.

While I have about equal personal experience with both US and imports, I place value in statistically significant results that show for a long time, Japanese cars have been more reliable than US cars. These statistical results are based on the responses of hundreds of thousands of car owners, not a few. They do not apply to a single car, as anyone that understands statistics knows, but apply overall with a defined level of certainty. In other words, your personal experience can differ from the overall results and that does not invalidate the results. In fact, my Armada has been excellent for 2+ years but the early data is not good for a few areas. Even though we have no problems, I am keeping an eye on the probable problem areas indicated by the early surveys.

The applicability of the statistics is dependent on the size of the sample, i.e., how many car owners were polled in this case. The large samples I referred to were polled by Consumer Reports and JD Powers. They represent the views of the car owners, not some dark conspiracy. I'm not sure how JD Powers picks samples, but CR is based on subscriber data. JD Powers is international and does this big-time for a living, so they aren't going to violate good polling/reporting practices or they would be out of business. It's not all surprising if no one on this forum has been polled.

When slow intimated that the NHTSA recall data would back him up, I downloaded the recall data from the NHTSA website and let the computer analyze the database. I posted the count of recall notices for each car maker over the time period of the database.

Slow is exactly right that the number of vehicle models that a carmaker produces would effect the number of recalls.
However, when the Big Three US manufacturers individually have 10-20 times as many recalls as Honda or Toyota individually, you can't rack that up to "number of models". It must be something else.

Now - all this talk about JD Powers surveys and what they show. JD Powers has Vehicle Dependability Studies (VDS) conducted each year for vehicles sold three years prior. As such, they are an indicator of what I would call short- to medium-term reliability. I consider long-term reliability to be more in the range of 5-8 years. YMMV.
The JD Powers VDS has shown Japanese makes better than many others, including the majority of US makes, for a number of years.
I posted survey summary charts for three years - 2000, 2003, and 2005. The reason I posted this was to show what I considered a promising trend (that has also been noted in respected automotive press) that the US makers seem to be making good strides in this area in the last few years. Over this period they show the US makes moving well up in the rankings for the shorter-term (3-year) studies.
I'm quite happy with this, since I would like to be able to buy US makes more often with some higher expectation of long-term reliability.

In the end, I posted data that slow doesn't believe and slow posted his personal experience that I have no reason not to believe, but I understand that a small sample (his or mine) is useless in projecting to a large population.

I encourage all the forum members not to take either of our postings as gospel, but go do some research. See what you find.

And since slow and I don't agree at all about this, let's try to keep it out of other threads. We've bored too many people too much.

I encourage all the forum members not to take either of our postings as gospel, but go do some research. See what you find.

And since slow and I don't agree at all about this, let's try to keep it out of other threads. We've bored too many people too much.



Agreed^

Closed.