I have a question to our american members. Can you tell me why you prefer old school style suspension over independent systems? I dont want to start a flame war or anything, i'm generally curious. Speaking from a European perspective, i cannot understand the benifits other than cost. For example, i read earlier today that the Ford Mustang was going to be launched with IRS. But, Mustang purists voted against this and Ford not wanting to spend anymore than was necessary agreed. I dont understand, we can all see that IRS provides a much better base to make a drivers car. Am i missing the point? Like I said, i'm curious...

(If this topic causes any offence to american users, then a apologise in advance, moderators if you feel this topic is asking for trouble, then please delete.)

Drag-racing pretty much sums up alot.

You mean its easier to get a say, leaf sprung Corvette off the line over a Independent set-up 911? Well, yeah true. I've neva been to the USA, but are all your roads straight? Do you have anything like our B-Roads? Sorry for sounding dumb...

I don't know what B-roads are, but most of our roads are pretty straight. Especially a road near my house. It's straight and has few stoplights and is atleast 2 miles long. It's infamous for it's drag-racing injuries and there was a death once. Unfortunately only ricers use it.

It is mainly because all the street racing going on in the U.S. is red light to red light, so you need a car that is easy to launch with all that torque produced by those big old V8's.
Just try to get a 500 foot pound of torque off the line on a typical BMW/M-B. It is not that easy with IRS.

Yeah, but when they try and tackle European markets or Asian markets, sometimes they still use that setup. Surely they know that the majoraty of the time it won't be as advanced, and it won't keep up with more technologically advanced systems that are used by other comapnies?

If they want to keep costs down, fair enough, but you do have to put the cash in to get anything out of it.

^Retarrrrded.

It's because of drag racers of old, brought up on live rear axles, and now they're on strips doing legal racing.

Oh, ok. But what about cars like the GT500. I know everybody wants to launch down Las Vegas drag strips n stuff, but what about when you get to a mountain road? I'm gonna take you lot to the french alps with a bunch of Ferrari's.... lol!

looks like another person has fallen victim to thinking that american cars cant turn :( it makes me sad to see this. not all cars made in north america are bad at turning. and also if you have the right driver in the seat, they can make even more of a difference. i regularly demolish asian and european cars in straights and in turns because i know how to handle the car.

looks like another person has fallen victim to thinking that american cars cant turn :( it makes me sad to see this. not all cars made in north america are bad at turning. and also if you have the right driver in the seat, they can make even more of a difference. i regularly demolish asian and european cars in straights and in turns because i know how to handle the car.

I know that... but, what i dont undertstand is why use older technology? I mean, surely a IRS system would make a better drivers car?

the way i see it is that the people designing these cars, and the people who buy them, were brought up during the muscle car era and thats what they have gotten used to and its what they like. and for drag racing its what youve got to have to get a really firm plant on the strip :)

the way i see it is that the people designing these cars, and the people who buy them, were brought up during the muscle car era and thats what they have gotten used to and its what they like. and for drag racing its what youve got to have to get a really firm plant on the strip :)

That makes things clearer. So would americans be opposed to the idea of a IRS Mustang or Camero?

Basically, now, with all this technology people are more concerned for safety than speed. THat's probably why european cars have IRS and old muscle cars have the old suspension. Back in the day, they cared about speed more than safety.

Humm, ok. Well, tbh I dont really get it. But, its want ppl like so who am i to judge. lol! Thanks for clearing some of that up ppl.

Ok. So summarize what you learned in a two page essay, 12 font size, double-spaced and submit it to SCF by Christmas Day.

Yeh... and i'll do it standing on my head counting back from a millon! Nah, truthfully its cleared the grey stuff in my head. I couldnt really understand why ppl would not accept a better system, but now i get it. It depends what ur using it for and the enviroment you're in. see....

Yeah, we americans don't really care much for the enviroment when it comes to cars and racing.

well, you have embraced the hybrid from what i've read. but, you guys should really try some more Diesels...

What is a live rear axle ? Compared to a, erm, dead one ????

Huh? I think...

Live Axle is like basically what you get on the back of a Caravan.

Independent System, like the control blade on a Focus, controls both wheels independently which gives better grip and stability as opposed to the live system, which controls the basic vertical movements of the axle.

I think thats right...

thought so, just checking, thanks

I would say some of the assesments here were right, some of them not so much.

A Solid axle can handle much larger amounts of power than an IRS can. By having dual CV joints on your typical CV shaft, you have two very weakpoints that dont hold up to hard launches and in general massive amounts of torque.

The 03/04 Cobra launched this way from the factory and one of the most common swaps is ripping the IRS out and installing a solid 8.8". It snaps cv shafts like its going out of style. There is a very good upgrade for 800+bhp Cobras in the form of cv shafts from "The Driveshaft Shop".

The GT500 uses Geometry similar to the FR500C race car. I know its like beating a dead horse, but the FR500C is a full on race car, available from Ford, that sports a solid rear axle with custom bushings and rear geometry. It competes against Porsche 996's, BMW M3's (both of which have IRS), and Camaros and Trans-Ams. Typically the Porsches dominate the series, but last year the Mustang, solid rear axle and all, spanked everything right off the track. This year they did pretty good, but some mismanagement of the team has held them back, the car is still noticeably superior to the Porsches and BMW's.

The only place a IRS is truly worth two poops, is in a corner, that has undulations. That is IT. If you have crappy roads, that have corners with crappy bumps, you will need IRS to go fast effectively. Anywhere else, its just a marketing gimmick.

The strength superiority of a solid axle cannot be overexxagerated in comparison with a IRS setup.

Drag-racing pretty much sums up alot.


Yeah Simpler components are less likely to break when racing, and they are cheaper to boot.

Welcome to America, we cant always turn quickly but we can haul in a straight line.

I dont know why, but i like the axle on the golf, it feels much more predictable and grippier than a IRS car. Only thing i can say is when i take a highway exit @ 120kph no car can follow me, even tried it against a STi and he just couldnt keep up in the bend.

I dont know why, but i like the axle on the golf, it feels much more predictable and grippier than a IRS car. Only thing i can say is when i take a highway exit @ 120kph no car can follow me, even tried it against a STi and he just couldnt keep up in the bend.



See this was confusing to me at first, because all of the exits where I live are just straight ramps, you can exit at any speed you want as long as there is not traffic.

You mean its easier to get a say, leaf sprung Corvette off the line over a Independent set-up 911? Well, yeah true. I've neva been to the USA, but are all your roads straight? Do you have anything like our B-Roads? Sorry for sounding dumb...

Corvettes have an IRS. The leaf spring that you are speaking of sits transversly, with the mounts in the middle. Either end is attached to the floating rear suspension.
While I do agree with most of What Slow said, I would like to point out that more roads are imperfect in the corners, than are perfectly smooth

You mean its easier to get a say, leaf sprung Corvette off the line over a Independent set-up 911? Well, yeah true. I've neva been to the USA, but are all your roads straight? Do you have anything like our B-Roads? Sorry for sounding dumb...

when our highways and such were made, the were planned out to be as stragiht as possible, as much as possible, rather stupid IMO, but, thats how it worked. but, with a speed limit of only 60mph (generaly) its kind of irrelavant.


I have a question to our american members. Can you tell me why you prefer old school style suspension over independent systems? I dont want to start a flame war or anything, i'm generally curious. Speaking from a European perspective, i cannot understand the benifits other than cost. For example, i read earlier today that the Ford Mustang was going to be launched with IRS. But, Mustang purists voted against this and Ford not wanting to spend anymore than was necessary agreed. I dont understand, we can all see that IRS provides a much better base to make a drivers car. Am i missing the point? Like I said, i'm curious...

(If this topic causes any offence to american users, then a apologise in advance, moderators if you feel this topic is asking for trouble, then please delete.)


Heres my opinion on the subject. Under stand that I am an offroader more than a sports car enthusiast, meaning I know more about, and have more experince with, vehicles meant to be driven OFFroad.

That said, some of the bonus's as pointed out by slowfive oh are the fact that they handle power much better.

this is well demonstrated off road where not only are independant suspension insuufiently strong to handle the stresses of the terrain, but also incapable of withstanding the stresses of the massive amounts of torque the engine produce.

solid axles are stronger, no question about it. they may not handle as well on road, but if your looking for ability to ope with strength over ability to handle well, solid axle is by far the choice to go with.

and you know us americans. strong is how we do, :p


also, just to point out, the Hummer 1 uses an a arm supension. And its the only one in the world that isnt on very heavy duty trucks (ie tractors, and bulldozers and such) that I consider to be good. Very good contruction, very strong. a arm suspension's COULD be made strong enough to be made in our cars, but at a great expense, and it would add unnessacary weight.

btw, along with hybrid vehilces, deisels are also a fad nowadays.

Corvettes have an IRS. The leaf spring that you are speaking of sits transversly, with the mounts in the middle. Either end is attached to the floating rear suspension.
While I do agree with most of What Slow said, I would like to point out that more roads are imperfect in the corners, than are perfectly smooth

Of course, but even in Germany, there were more straights, than bends.

Racing encounters come down to percentages. :)

See what I mean?

While I do agree with most of What Slow said, I would like to point out that more roads are imperfect in the corners, than are perfectly smooth
not on a track.

Well, in the UK we must have some of the worst roads ever seen. So, i guess a IRS would be welcome help. But thanks for helping me understand, i guess i'd still rather have a IRS system though. But thats just my personal feeling on the subject.

@ Car_buff, sorry i didn't know the Vette had IRS. My bad...

Well, in the UK we must have some of the worst roads ever seen. .

You guys should definetly visit Lebanon lo0l !

Anything like the roads in Portugal? Dirt tracks n stuff? lol!

us americans dont care much about handling and drifting and all those things we only care about speed,hp,accelaration and we love driving in straighter roads so we dont find why we need to buy more expensive suspensions when we could just power up are engine with that money

us americans dont care much about handling and drifting and all those things we only care about speed,hp,accelaration and we love driving in straighter roads so we dont find why we need to buy more expensive suspensions when we could just power up are engine with that money

Does the word handling means anything to you? :confused:

The Pontiac Firebird Firehawk is one of the best handling car with a live rear axle

jeep srt-8 outmaneuvers porsche (boxter i belive) with live front and rear axles *insert googly eyed smile here*

not to mention its faster as well.

Does the word handling means anything to you? :confused:


Nope not really.

There isnt any place where sharp crisp handling is even a need.


Decent, sporty steering is plenty to get around wide sloping corners, so why bother with more.

Like others have said, we would rather spend 10% of our money on suspension and 90% on the motor instead.


Here Power is king, if you cant haul ass, your nothing.

Does the word handling means anything to you? :confused:

some of us do, and that explaines the vette market

Nope not really.

There isnt any place where sharp crisp handling is even a need.


Decent, sporty steering is plenty to get around wide sloping corners, so why bother with more.

Like others have said, we would rather spend 10% of our money on suspension and 90% on the motor instead.


Here Power is king, if you cant haul ass, your nothing.

Hrm? Here in Virginia, we have tons of country roads that are a blast to go all fast and twisty on. Cumberland county, Bedford county, Campbell county...man, the backroads around those parts are fabulous, say nothing of the Blue Ridge Parkway and the many countryside mountain passes and byways. Good, solid, well paved, twisty, fast country roads with beautiful scenery. Right on. It's not safe to go faster than 60 on most of those roads, so I'd rather have a good suspension setup than any million horsepower car around where I live. Fourth gear, 4000 rpms, 50 miles an hour, twists, turns. Man, that's what driving is all about.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and try to give a perspective that may or may not be correct but I'd love criticism.

You know in biology the is a rule that applies when you compare different organisms, "There is no such thing as more evolved or more advanced, only more complex. Ever organism is perfectly adapted, or becoming perfectly adapted, to it's own nitch." I believe the same thing holds true in comparing cars.

You can say that singe-cam pushrod engines and solid axles are low tech and a thing of the past if you want along with leaf springs and carburetors but the honest truth is that they are good at what they do. In the same way, you could say a ant is low tech, or less evolved but the truth is that ants out weigh the human race, they predate us and will most likely succeed us in time.

People love to put technologies on a pedestal, DOHC, AWD, VTEC, etc. Those technologies are good for certain applications but they are not the best at everything. Just like an ant and a human are both good at what they do, they also both occupy different parts of nature.

So when you want to know why Americans choose simpler designs for suspension, you need to ask what advantages do those simpler designs give the car? The answer is that a simple design is less expensive, easier to maintain and still can excel in a narrower field.

I'll use the Corvette, which has been criticised for not using coil springs but instead leaf springs. This car has already shown that leaf springs are ever bit as effective as anything else on the track. So no sacrifice was made in terms of dry handling performance. In addition the Corvette is often toted as the inexpensive supercar, or the supercar killer. Part of this is due to the simplicity of design, the relatively simple engine and the simple suspension. So the simpler suspension helped bring down the price.

So what advantages does the simpler design confer? It gives great performance at a lower cost.

What are the disadvantages? Well for one I can speak first hand in anything that a leaf spring setup is harder to adjust then a coilover setup. For years Doug Rippie sold a coilover conversion kit that used a weakened leaf spring and a coilover supplement that was adjustable so road racers could tune for the specific course.

So the disadvantages to a simpler design is that it is less flexible then a more complex system, generally speaking.

These trends are evidence both in nature also. Compare an human to a beaver. Both can cut down trees well. A beaver can cut down trees at significantly less cost to itself then a human however, it doesn't require any tools or help. A human can do much more then cut down tress though, when that's really all the beaver is good for.

The human is the more complex system here, it's more flexible but results in a higher cost to itself and to produce. The beaver is the less complex system, it's less expensive to produce and works at a lower cost to itself.

In the same way coilover springs are the complex system, they're expensive to produce and can be costly to maintain but are easily adjusted and perform better under multiple conditions. Leaf springs are the less complex system, requiring less maintenance and are less expensive to produce and still can provide as good or better performance under mainstream conditions. They are however less flexible and less easily adapted.

Now I head towards an example nobody thought I would touch, carburetors and fuel injection. Here the fuel injection is more complicated and the carburetor is the simpler system. While the carburetor is the easier of the two the tune it remains the less flexible because it needs adjustment to specific conditions (attitudes, etc) while the fuel injection system can adapt itself. Again under those specific conditions for which a carburetor is tuned it can easily out perform fuel injection. Just less then a weak ago I can a conversation with my uncle, who works as a pit crew chief on a NASCAR team, about would NASCAR ever use fuel injection if the regulations allowed for it. He told me for a car running at almost full throttle for most of the time a carburetor could do the better then almost any fuel injection system while being simpler and more reliable.

We see the same trend, the simpler carburetor can out perform fuel injection under certain conditions while being less expensive and less complex but is inherently less flexible.

I could do the same thing with variable valve timing and camshafts or a number of other automotive related topics but I have one last example not related to sports cars, its about firetrucks. In case anyone doesn't know, when you fight a fire you need two separate teams that work together accomplishing different tasks to achieve the same goal. One is an engine crew, which runs hose lines and actual puts the water on the fire. The other is a ladder crew which does search and rescue, ventilates the fire, and can also serve as the RIT or rapid intervention team. For firefighters there are four main types of trucks; engines, ladder trucks, rescue trucks, and quints. You can ignore the rescue truck for this example but focus on the other three. A engine truck pumps water and has tons of hose for stretching lines. A ladder truck might have some extra hose but will mostly carry tools, ladders, and an aerial ladder for entry on to a upper level. A quint can do both, it has an aerial ladder, a water pump and tank, hose, and tools so it can do the job of a ladder truck or an engine. The idea behind a quint is that it could serve as either depending on the situation giving it flexibility. When I asked my chief why we didn't buy one of those he told that a quint can do the job of a ladder truck or a engine but it doesn't do either very well. Fighting fires as I mentioned before needs those two teams, just like screwing in a bold requires a screwdriver and a wrench to hold it in place. A leather man can do both but anyone who has used a leather man knows that it doesn't do either job very well.

Same theme, the more complex tool won't perform as well but can remain more flexible.

My point and the final answer to your question? Simple systems are the better choice sometimes.

(I'm not proofreading this so sorry if it reads horribly.)

Hrm? Here in Virginia, we have tons of country roads that are a blast to go all fast and twisty on. Cumberland county, Bedford county, Campbell county...man, the backroads around those parts are fabulous, say nothing of the Blue Ridge Parkway and the many countryside mountain passes and byways. Good, solid, well paved, twisty, fast country roads with beautiful scenery. Right on. It's not safe to go faster than 60 on most of those roads, so I'd rather have a good suspension setup than any million horsepower car around where I live. Fourth gear, 4000 rpms, 50 miles an hour, twists, turns. Man, that's what driving is all about.


I mean here as in Texas.

In America there are plenty of curvy roads, but nothing to warrent serious agility (tight crisp turn-ins like a ferrari or BMW), a Mustang has a solid rear axle and its plenty agile enough to get around those at dangerous speeds.

I said sporty handling is enough, since theres no hairpin turns or tight roads here, decent handling is all you need, so the rest can go into the engine.

Besides wouldent you rather let the back hang out and give it a little gas for some torque induced fun ?
I would rather have a muscle car then a miata.

Just like I would rather lift weights than do ballet.

I mean here as in Texas.

In America there are plenty of curvy roads, but nothing to warrent serious agility (tight crisp turn-ins like a ferrari or BMW), a Mustang has a solid rear axle and its plenty agile enough to get around those at dangerous speeds.

I said sporty handling is enough, since theres no hairpin turns or tight roads here, decent handling is all you need, so the rest can go into the engine.

Besides wouldent you rather let the back hang out and give it a little gas for some torque induced fun ?
I would rather have a muscle car then a miata.

Just like I would rather lift weights than do ballet.

Well, call me a fruitcake, but in my neck of America, I dig the mountain and country roads and hairpins on Coffee Rd. outside Lynchburg, VA and the Blue Ridge parkway 10 minutes from my in-laws' house. I definitely prefer those to than any interstate OR dragstrip. And I've been in a Ballet before (as one of the musicians, granted) and it was an incredible experience. There's a saying that I like...you are either smart, strong, or talented. Each is good for it's own thing.

You did know you can hang out the rear end of a Miata pretty easily, right?

For me, a Miata>Any muscle car, any day.

I definitely prefer those to than any interstate OR dragstrip. And I've been in a Ballet before (as one of the musicians, granted) and it was an incredible experience.
You did know you can hang out the rear end of a Miata pretty easily, right?

For me, a Miata>Any muscle car, any day.


All of a sudden, it all makes sense.

Lack of obsession with power, fixation on ballet, hanging rear ends....

"Fruitcake" wasn't quite the word. There's 4 letters in there involving pastrys that needs to go....

:D

Well, call me a fruitcake, but in my neck of America, I dig the mountain and country roads and hairpins on Coffee Rd. outside Lynchburg, VA and the Blue Ridge parkway 10 minutes from my in-laws' house. I definitely prefer those to than any interstate OR dragstrip. And I've been in a Ballet before (as one of the musicians, granted) and it was an incredible experience. There's a saying that I like...you are either smart, strong, or talented. Each is good for it's own thing.

You did know you can hang out the rear end of a Miata pretty easily, right?

For me, a Miata>Any muscle car, any day.

Miata?!, that's an insult. O and why does everybody think muscle can't turn.

I'm married, Slow. :rolleyes:

I just don't have to "compensate" with excessive amounts of horsepower. :D

rpguru, I know muscle can turn, man. Don't sweat it, I'm just voicing my opinion. The Miata is a helluva car, anyhow.

I'm married, Slow. :rolleyes:

I just don't have to "compensate" with excessive amounts of horsepower. :D

rpguru, I know muscle can turn, man. Don't sweat it, I'm just voicing my opinion. The Miata is a helluva car, anyhow.

Me too. :) With child no less, possibly "children".

Its not a matter of compensation. When you're scared of better, bigger, badder things, you become comfortable with what you're familiar with and know you can handle.

For you its ballet and Miatas.

BWAHAHAHAHA

I'm just messing with ya....

Miata?!, that's an insult. O and why does everybody think muscle can't turn.

Me too. :) With child no less, possibly "children".

Its not a matter of compensation. When you're scared of better, bigger, badder things, you become comfortable with what you're familiar with and know you can handle.

For you its ballet and Miatas.

BWAHAHAHAHA

I'm just messing with ya....

Fair enough...and congrats on the kiddies.

I'm married, Slow. :rolleyes:

I just don't have to "compensate" with excessive amounts of horsepower. :D

rpguru, I know muscle can turn, man. Don't sweat it, I'm just voicing my opinion. The Miata is a helluva car, anyhow.


Well since hes married and to the best of my knowledge gay marriage is banned in virgina, I guess we are going to call him effeminate instead of gay...[-X ...


Oh and I can hang the rear end on my manual camry pretty easily but that doesnt make it fun to drive.

And dancing is a form of expression for the incompetent. If you deal with emotion like a man theres no point in being one. Ballet is for women and liking it as a male doesnt make you sophisticated, it just makes you married, so well allow that I guess.

Oh, dear. Well, I do yoga, too. Just to fan the flames.

To my credit, I didn't dance in the ballet, I played Viola in the orchestra, and it was Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. Check it out sometime, it's a brutal piece of music. I bet it will scare the s*** out of you. I'm also in a thrash metal band. I kayak, too.

Just mentioning that in VA I've seen some serous country roads that have sharper twists then anything I've seen in Europe (during my tour of England, Germany, France, and Sweden).

I think I might know a few of the roads you're talking about. Are you anywhere close to the Mayo river?

No, I don't think so, but I've been kayaking down the Mayo before...or maybe that was the Maury I'm thinking of. Is the Mayo to the north of the state? There's appoximately a million rivers in VA, and I can barely remember the big ones usually. As for driving, just head towards Bedford, Campbell, or Amherst county in central VA. Great roads, and the scenery is unbeatable. Actually, if you go anywhere there's not a city you can usually find a good road to pound on.

Um, not all American muscle cars have solid axles - the SRT does have IRS and 425 HP. Who says badder and faster can't also take the twisties as well?

Car Buff - didn't even see your post. You forgot handling in wet and snow for that Jeep as well!